New FAQ!, 'bout time Options

[Draco18s]

Who did this, I wonder?

Noticed this below it,

What happens to their clothing and armor when a drake or shapeshifter uses their Shift power?

Clothing is generally shredded or burst through; armor may also be ruined at the gamemaster's discretion. Shapeshifters or drakes in power armor may find themselves trapped.

The guideline I was given was that if the non-metahuman form's body is less than the armor value, then they're trapped and take damage equal to that armor value. It's a bit excessive (imagine taking 8P damage, resisted with your "less than 8 body" without armor), especially considering that (assuming your body doesn't change) a body 4 character can wear 8 armor without penalty.

[Draco18s]

If a character is an area covered by suppressive fire, does he need to make a defense test immediately when the shooter starts firing? Or is he safe as long as he doesn't attempt to move?

If he is in the suppressed area and he is not behind cover or prone—then yes, he must resist the attack as soon as the bullets start flying. Note that any character that moves in, out of, or within a suppressed fire area (other than taking cover/going prone) must resist the attack as normal.

Slight error here. It states that if a character doesn't drop prone immediately (on the shooter's turn, which by RAW is impossible, as dropping prone is a free action IIRC, which the defender does not have at that specific moment) they take damage.

I think what you're looking for here is that if he doesn't drop prone or take cover on his next action then he takes damage. "Not moving" is not "dropping prone" and therefore would not render the character safe. It gets murky when the defender has fewer passes than the attacker and you're using the optional "everyone has four passes with regards to movement" rule, but I'd say that instead of continuing to move the character could drop prone instead.

Can you take Magical Resistance and any of the new magical qualities in Street Magic?

Characters with any quality that grants a Magic rating (Adept, Astral Sight, Latent Awakening, Magician, Mystic Adept, Spell/Spirit Knack) may not take Magic Resistance.

Is there source for this? Or is this "from the guy who thought up the quality and has no RAW basis"? This would actually effect my local game, as Bear Who Digs Through Walls [bear shifter adept] picked up Magic Resistance, as it was way cheaper than buying an equivalent value of willpower.

What is the relationship between Shadowrun and Earthdawn?

In addition, they're also not making any new links, as far as I am aware. That is, they're only reusing established links.

[Ascalaphus]

You can only take free actions if it is or has been your turn; being able to drop prone against suppressive fire is a matter of having better Initiative.

[Ancient History]

Slight error here. It states that if a character doesn't drop prone immediately (on the shooter's turn, which by RAW is impossible, as dropping prone is a free action IIRC, which the defender does not have at that specific moment) they take damage.

I'm not sure where you're getting the "drop prone immediately" bit, which seems to be the source of your consternation.

Is there source for this? Or is this "from the guy who thought up the quality and has no RAW basis"? This would actually effect my local game, as Bear Who Digs Through Walls [bear shifter adept] picked up Magic Resistance, as it was way cheaper than buying an equivalent value of willpower.

The description for the Magic Resistance positive quality makes it incompatible with the Adept, Magician, and Mystic Adept qualities - the additional qualities mentioned are in Street Magic and so of course are not mentioned in the main book; the question is only intended to clarify that the same limitation should apply to those qualities as well.

[BookWyrm]

Here's my question;
Is the current FAQ up to date?

[Draco18s]

I'm not sure where you're getting the "drop prone immediately" bit, which seems to be the source of your consternation.

Uh:

If a character is an area covered by suppressive fire, does he need to make a defense test immediately when the shooter starts firing?

If he is in the suppressed area and he is not behind cover or prone—then yes, he must resist the attack as soon as the bullets start flying.

The description for the Magic Resistance positive quality makes it incompatible with the Adept, Magician, and Mystic Adept qualities - the additional qualities mentioned are in Street Magic and so of course are not mentioned in the main book; the question is only intended to clarify that the same limitation should apply to those qualities as well.

Ok, fair. I am AFB at the moment, so I wasn't able to check. Most of the FAQ entries have a "see page X in book Y" when they state things as fact, whereas this one was short and had no reference.

[Ancient History]

Uh:

If a character is an area covered by suppressive fire, does he need to make a defense test immediately when the shooter starts firing?

If he is in the suppressed area and he is not behind cover or prone—then yes, he must resist the attack as soon as the bullets start flying.

Okay, that's not the FAQ saying a character has to drop prone immediately (though if they can do it, that's a neat trick), that's a statement that if the character is not already behind cover or already prone (i.e. standing around in what is presumed to be an exposed location), then they need to make a defense test. I had thought that was clear, but I guess it could be misread.

[Ancient History]

Here's my question;
Is the current FAQ up to date?

Accurate through Running Wild, aside from one or two little artifacts (cellular repair and HMHVV should have been Essence Drain, I think).

[BookWyrm]

Thanks AH.

[Muspellsheimr]

The freelancers that put the FAQ together (not just me! Thank them too!) were attempting to clarify the rules as the exist, not create new rules (that's the purpose of new books) or to "fix" the rules (that's the purpose of errata). That said, there were some situations where different arguments regarding playability won out.

Then include it in Errata. As I said, I will even write the damn thing for you, if you want.

Until then, it does not belong in the FAQ, regardless of "playability" or other arguements.

Re: Splitting Dice Pools
The wording here gets into gamer legalese (what is a modifier?) but the general purpose is to avoid "double-dipping" so to speak - adding the same specialization or focus to two different tests being performed at the same time.

No, it doesn't. It's rather quite clear what a modifier is - I even provided the quote for you. Anything that affects a Dice Pool other than Attribute or Skill is a Dice Pool Modifier.

Such "double-dipping" (applying Specialization to each split pool) is the only reason splitting pools is usable to begin with, and is RAW.

Re: Mystic Adepts
Closest the FAQ comes to an actual errata, meant to reflect the actual intention of SR4A, and again is intended to avoid abuse of this character concept and emphasize the division between the mystic adept's abilities.

Here the FAQ specifically & directly contradicts the Rules as Written, apparently in the name of "playability" [Note: This ruling effectively makes Mystic Adepts useless outside a few very specific, specialized, niche builds - which are still generally done equally or better with other archtypes]

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character
gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character
one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not
have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able
to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.

And again, points dedicated to mana-based abilities applies to the use of Magic-based skills. While there can be an arguement made for that affecting maximum Force & determining Overcasting, it is unsupported. Show me one quote - just one - from the rules declaring maximum Force, & Drain being Stun or Physical, being based off of skills.

I can show you several quotes where such values are not even remotely related to skills.

[Ancient History]

Musp, you're trying to turn steak into beef here. I gave you the justification behind it, but I'm no longer a freelancer. You may bitch and kvetch to me about the FAQ - I put most of it together - but I can't change any of it. Send an e-mail to Jason, with a book reference, and Ghost willing he'll respond to you faster than he will to me.

[/edit]If it makes you calm down a little, I think the main fuck-up in that one was the example. I can't even remember if I wrote it or if it was error-by-committee at this point.

[Draco18s]

Okay, that's not the FAQ saying a character has to drop prone immediately (though if they can do it, that's a neat trick), that's a statement that if the character is not already behind cover or already prone (i.e. standing around in what is presumed to be an exposed location), then they need to make a defense test. I had thought that was clear, but I guess it could be misread.

So if I go, and there are 8 dudes in front of me all currently standing out in the open, and suppressive fire them, I immediately, on my turn cause all eight of them to make a defense test against [base] DV? Then when its their turn, if they don't drop prone they have to resist [base] DV again?

[Ancient History]

Well, considering that you're spraying bullets about like water from a hose, and all of them are standing in front of you and in the open...yeah, pretty much. The hail of bullets starts during the shooter's first Action Phase, and proceeds until the shooter's next Action Phase (barring, y'know, being disarmed or killed). So your eight mooks standing out in the open would make an initial defense test, and then if any of their Action Phases came up before the shooter's next they would have the option to bite the dirt (drop prone), or in some other way attempt to move out of the area or get behind cover or shoot back, etc. (all of which again represents the possibility of getting shot, since you're standing in front of a guy shooting wildly at your general direction, and so would require another Defense test).

[kjones]

Every time I try to understand the vehicle rules, I get more confused. It doesn't help that "Acceleration" doesn't seem to mean what they think it means.

[Ancient History]

Well, yeah, that's the root of the problem. You have to use the metahuman movement rules for vehicles and it...doesn't work.

[kjones]

I just read through the FAQ section again and got even more confused.

Would anyone care to provide a clear explanation of how vehicle movement is supposed to work?

[Draco18s]

Would anyone care to provide a clear explanation of how vehicle movement is supposed to work?

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[hobgoblin]

my take of the vehicle rules, based on SR4a and faq is this:

do not care one bit about acceleration during chase combat.

do not care one bit about speed during normal combat.

during chase combat, only compare speed to speed (consider the vehicles to always move at their max safe speed) for opening opposed tests, and forget that acceleration as a stat exists.

during normal combat, have the vehicle behave as a normal person, using acceleration stats.

[Tycho]

I always thought the right answer to:

How does vehicle Speed and Acceleration work? is:

They don't!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

cya
Tycho

[Draco18s]

I always thought the right answer to:

How does vehicle Speed and Acceleration work? is:

They don't!

Hence my ZALGO post. The rules simply don't work as written.

[FriendoftheDork]

So if I go, and there are 8 dudes in front of me all currently standing out in the open, and suppressive fire them, I immediately, on my turn cause all eight of them to make a defense test against [base] DV? Then when its their turn, if they don't drop prone they have to resist [base] DV again?

Use a minigun and it gets really ugly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) DV 9 FTW.. and you only need to fire 30-40 rounds or so.

Also notice the defenders all get their Edge in addition to reaction on this test without having to use a full action - most serious opposition will simply dodge the bullets.


In fact in my games I used to think this was too puny, especially for SMGs... soaking 5 damage is nothing when you're a troll and even unarmored civillians will not get killed by this alone unless I use some strange mook house rule - suddenly driveby with random spraying into crowds is mostly harmless.

[Draco18s]

Reading over the BBB on Suppressive Fire, I find that the FAQ is correct. "Any character that is currently in (but...)"

[Falconer]

I have to agree, it's nice to have an updated FAQ and it does clarify a lot. Ancient deserves some kudos for pushing this through and getting it almost completely correct.

However, I have to back up Muspellsheimr on this one... those two examples are clearly in full contradiction to the RAW provided in SR4a. I had the exact same reaction reading that section.


Those belong in errata (which also has the benefit of playtesting), not in a FAQ. As they do not clarify one wit, they instead confuse the issue as they're in direct contradiction to the rulebook. The rulebook is very clear on what a dicepool modifier is... If the devs do not want to treat some items as dicepool modifier... then they should create a new category of skill mods and errata it. (right now we have attributes, skills + skill mods, and dicepool modifiers... by RAW the first three get split then apply the second).


Even the hardened armor doesn't bother me... my argument was based on a simple fact and intended balance result (limiting obscene armor pools). EVERY other source of armor in the game states that it is cumulative w/ the worn armor total (and worn armor doesn't stack). Hardened has no words to this effect leaving it the only case of armor w/o a stacking/non-stacking clause leaving it ambiguous and people just assumed it stacked. (nothing in the rules stops a creature from having say 5 points hardened, and 8 points natural armor... IE: 8 points to resist all damage but only immune to 5 or less giving a lot more leeway in critter creation). So in this case, the FAQ actually does clarify a clearly ambiguous area of the rules.

[Emy]

So if I go, and there are 8 dudes in front of me all currently standing out in the open, and suppressive fire them, I immediately, on my turn cause all eight of them to make a defense test against [base] DV? Then when its their turn, if they don't drop prone they have to resist [base] DV again?

So, someone that has 1 IP can still use Suppressive Fire to great effect. However, now... while someone with 4 passes still eats through a ton more bullets, they also have more potential to do damage per turn.

[Falconer]

So, someone that has 1 IP can still use Suppressive Fire to great effect. However, now... while someone with 4 passes still eats through a ton more bullets, they also have more potential to do damage per turn.

The only way to deal w/ that is to give everyone 4 passes of sorts. Which can get a little unwieldy though it would play better IMO. But that's not really germaine to a FAQ thread.

IE: EVERYONE breaks their movement up into 4 passes... someone w/ a single IP only gets 1 complex or 2 simple actions spread out across those IP's.

IP1: decker moves behind cover
IP2: decker stays behind cover
IP3: decker fires 2 shots from his pistol (2 simple action) or lays down one pass if covering fire.
IP3: decker out of actions but moves his final quarter movement.