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> Why bother with Delta 'ware reflexes?, Bio is cheaper
KnightIII
post Mar 23 2010, 12:03 PM
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I tried the search function on here but could not find a thread that addressed this. If it has been covered I appologize.

But, heres the thing. My PCs are coming into some money finally (4 months of play) dispite my best efforts to ruin their hopes and dreams. And while several of them are newish to RP games, they are all good at math.

Wire Reflexes 3 (standard) 100,000 nuyen, 20R availability, >5< essence!
Synaptic Booster 3 (standard) 240,000 nuyen, 18R Availability, 1.5 essence
Now at this level Wired Reflexes is clearly cheaper and worth the buy if you can afford the gouge to your essence.
But...

Wired Reflexes 3 (delta) 1,000,000 dollars! *pinky-lip*, Available? lawl, 2.5 essence
Synaptic Booster 3 (still standard) 240k, 18R, 1.5 essence

Bone lacing
Titanium (standard) 40,000, 16F, 1.5 essence
Bone Density Augmentation 4 (standard) 80,000, 12, 1.2 essence
Titanium (alpha) 80'000, 16F, 1.2 essence
This is much more in line with what I expect. The availabilities are questionable, but you are still getting roughly the same for your money.

Was there an errata on the Synaptic booster that I missed, or is that just one of those things that its silly for runners to not get when its in their price range? Likely leaving a hole in their essence to fill with other stuff.
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Ascalaphus
post Mar 23 2010, 12:16 PM
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Not all ware is equally good. Wired I is a good price/effect when you're tight on money; after that it's Move-by Wire vs. Synaptic Boosters.
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DWC
post Mar 23 2010, 12:19 PM
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When comparing two options with similar features, Bioware is better. It's the new, sexy technology, that improved on a lot of the original features cyberware was developed for. As an aside, bone lacing is terrible because it is easily detectable and completely illegal, while the comparable bioware is neither Forbidden nor detectable without a lot of assensing or invasive testing.
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Summerstorm
post Mar 23 2010, 12:28 PM
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And that's why i think bioware should be a bit "slower". All bioware should be smoother, nice on essence and "repairs" and feel good. Cyber is fast, cheap, aggressive and POWERFUL and should ruin the bodies and minds.

If you are unsatisfied with the rules as they stand, change them. I would say: Have the Synaptic Booster at maximum rating 2. Bone density the same. Nothing beats Awesometanium in your bones, done.

Or just make the deltaware and such cheap and more readily available for cybertechnology. Since it is the "old" stuff.
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KnightIII
post Mar 23 2010, 12:30 PM
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Yeah, I know the pros and cons of Bone Lacing. The groups troll has a fear of metal detectors with his .5 essence score anyway. We wont talk about the the fact that the Steel Lynx drone is quieter than he is. But anyway...

I just thought maybe the Synaptic Booster was meant to be more expensive. 240k and 1.5 essence just seems cheap to maximize the characters IPs.
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Professor Evil O...
post Mar 23 2010, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Mar 23 2010, 04:28 AM) *
And that's why i think bioware should be a bit "slower". All bioware should be smoother, nice on essence and "repairs" and feel good. Cyber is fast, cheap, aggressive and POWERFUL and should ruin the bodies and minds.


That's basically the way it worked pre SR4. Cyberware was much, much better than bioware that did the same thing (exception - muscle replacement) but cost essence (bioware didn't even cost essence back then). For example wired 3 gave +3d6 init and 6 reaction, synaptic only gave +2d6; even wired 2 was better with +2d6 and +4 reaction. SR4 advanced the tech level on bioware making it able to compete and in many cases surpass cyberware.
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Godwyn
post Mar 23 2010, 01:07 PM
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The trick is where is the 1.5 essence coming from? Since the bio and cyber essence tracks are separate, installing cheap cyberware up front means you are in for some long and expensive medical treatments before having the essence hole available.
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Summerstorm
post Mar 23 2010, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Professor Evil Overlord @ Mar 23 2010, 01:43 PM) *
That's basically the way it worked pre SR4. Cyberware was much, much better than bioware that did the same thing (exception - muscle replacement) but cost essence (bioware didn't even cost essence back then). For example wired 3 gave +3d6 init and 6 reaction, synaptic only gave +2d6; even wired 2 was better with +2d6 and +4 reaction. SR4 advanced the tech level on bioware making it able to compete and in many cases surpass cyberware.


Yeah i know... And i am trying to skew the feeling back a bit. I just am not that satisfied with the changes made to the "feeling" and atmosphere of the gameworld. It just feels wrong to have "natural" biological systems perform better in the "POWAAAAH"- Aspect. Really, someone with metal arms and legs and structural inforcements in the torso should easily be four or five times stronger than an average man. No amount of vat-grown hyper-muscles should do that. Someone pretty much exchanging his nervous system and crammed full with bypasses, accelerators and such should outperform someone with optimized, broadened nervs and such.

Don't get me wrong i LOVE bioware and many characters of mine had it. In SR3 as well as in SR4. But it should just "feel" different. For example there were those "Over-rection" rules for someone with untriggered (or activated) reaction enhancements: They just flipped out, defended against something that wasn't there, or no real threat. Or shot at something which they saw in the corner of their eye and startled them. Bioware should be more "natural", better controlled and thus not carry these disadvantages (together with most magical enhancements).
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KnightIII
post Mar 23 2010, 01:43 PM
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Thank you Godwyn.

The cost and time of replacing the cheap 'ware with bioware is a nice limiting factor. For my troll PC it works out like this:
He has Alphaware Wired Reflexes 2. And a bunch of other junk leaving him with .5 essence. He will need to first have those wired reflexes ripped out. Then he will have .5 essence and a 2.4 "essence hole". But, according to Augmentation he cant replace cyberware holes with bioware. He now has a choice. Come up with a million bucks and get Delta reflexes 3 and drop to .4 essence. Or undergo gene therapy for 11 months (minimum to bring himself to 1.6 essence with a 1.3 "cyber hole") AND be without ANY wired reflexes for that whole time. Or Option three, increasing costs even more. Rip out the wired, take a month of therapy, implant a level 1 synapic booster. Resume therapy with start up costs again. Replace with level 2in 5 months. Start over again on therapy...

Well, at least this provide a nice healthy limitation. 80k for even level 1 synaptic boosters can be staggering to a starting character. And the time and money involved in swapping them out can actually make cyberware seem attactive again.
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nezumi
post Mar 23 2010, 01:46 PM
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And this, I think, is a good thing. Even playing SR3, I love seeing that SR4 has the same SR3 technology, but cheaper and more effective, AND a new, SR4 version which is cheaper and more effective still. That is precisely the system shock, the fear of obsolecense (sp?) that I want to instill in a cyberpunk setting.
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DireRadiant
post Mar 23 2010, 01:47 PM
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Some people can't use Bioware, some can't use cyberware, some are only offered certain choices by circumstances. Life is full of choices and not everyone has access to all the choices and the ability to pick from all of them.
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KCKitsune
post Mar 23 2010, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 23 2010, 09:47 AM) *
Some people can't use Bioware, some can't use cyberware, some are only offered certain choices by circumstances. Life is full of choices and not everyone has access to all the choices and the ability to pick from all of them.

What negative quality makes it so you can't use bioware?

I know Sensitive System makes cyber a real bitch, but I don't know what the bioware version is.
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cndblank
post Mar 23 2010, 02:16 PM
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I can agree on the Synaptic Booster 3 vs Wired III.

Although if they have that much cred then MBW III is much better than Wired III.


Nothing says you have to allow it in your campaign.

"That stuff is Blacker than Black and even then the rumors are it is still slower than fiberoptic based hardware."




I run an old school campaign in 2055.

Bioware is rare and double the price but also much harder to detect.

And a lot of stuff is not available.

Synaptic Booster 2 is SOTA and they don't know if they will even be able to get Bioware faster than fiberoptic based hardware.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Mar 23 2010, 03:40 PM
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Also, it is all a matter of time. If you can find a place that installs both WR3 and SB3, you can install the WR3 right away, while the SB must be vat-grown first which adds to the time. And a lot can happen during the waiting time.
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Ascalaphus
post Mar 23 2010, 04:01 PM
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Hmm, I rather like the idea of slightly lower maximums on bioware. "Flesh can only take you so far."

As I recall the problem with separate bioware/cyberware essence holes is that they're included in the comparison to determine which of the two essence costs (bio/cyber) is halved, which leads to some odd fluctuations, where adding just a tiny bit more of some implant will actually increase your essence.
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Ophis
post Mar 23 2010, 04:34 PM
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I've always gone with the advantage of wired is you can switch it off.
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McCummhail
post Mar 23 2010, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Mar 23 2010, 09:28 AM) *
Yeah i know... And i am trying to skew the feeling back a bit. I just am not that satisfied with the changes made to the "feeling" and atmosphere of the gameworld. It just feels wrong to have "natural" biological systems perform better in the "POWAAAAH"- Aspect. Really, someone with metal arms and legs and structural inforcements in the torso should easily be four or five times stronger than an average man. No amount of vat-grown hyper-muscles should do that. Someone pretty much exchanging his nervous system and crammed full with bypasses, accelerators and such should outperform someone with optimized, broadened nervs and such.

Maybe wired reflexes vs synaptic boosters doesn't have much of a "POWAAAH" difference, but when you get into cyberlimbs and redlining the "POWAAAH" definitely is still alive.
You might explore redlining and "overclocking" for other cyber.
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underaneonhalo
post Mar 23 2010, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (McCummhail @ Mar 23 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Maybe wired reflexes vs synaptic boosters doesn't have much of a "POWAAAH" difference, but when you get into cyberlimbs and redlining the "POWAAAH" definitely is still alive.
You might explore redlining and "overclocking" for other cyber.

I'd missed the sidebar about redlining, thanks for pointing that out!

Page 44 of Augmentation for anyone else that happened to miss that little gem.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 23 2010, 07:35 PM
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KnightIII, you sound like you're gonna fit right into this little looneybin ^^
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Wandering One
post Mar 23 2010, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Mar 23 2010, 09:34 AM) *
I've always gone with the advantage of wired is you can switch it off.


I'd have to agree with Ophis here, the only way to turn down the enhanced reactions from Bioware would be with drugs, whereas Wired can be switched off. Usually a good thing if your Sammy's jumpy in a new place and his guard's up... helps to not blow the waitress's head off when she taps him on the shoulder asking if he wants a drink.

RAW? Not as far as I know, but just the way I've always played it and understood it.
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kjones
post Mar 23 2010, 08:31 PM
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The "switch it off" interpretation is cool, but like you said, there's nothing in RAW about using Wired Reflexes or MBW (I call em "twitch-rigs") making you jumpy or prone to overreaction. I wouldn't mind playing it that way if it were my character, but if the GM tried to foist something like that on me without telling me beforehand, I'd be unhappy.

Also, you can't turn off bioware, but you can't hack it either.
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McCummhail
post Mar 23 2010, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Wandering One @ Mar 23 2010, 03:41 PM) *
I'd have to agree with Ophis here, the only way to turn down the enhanced reactions from Bioware would be with drugs, whereas Wired can be switched off. Usually a good thing if your Sammy's jumpy in a new place and his guard's up... helps to not blow the waitress's head off when she taps him on the shoulder asking if he wants a drink.

RAW? Not as far as I know, but just the way I've always played it and understood it.

Triggers and such are discussed at length on p.32 of Augmentation.
Doing a quick search, I found no mention of any switches for Bio-ware.

Additionally, spasms and such are linked by RAW to Move-by-wire systems (AUG, p.40),
but once again no evidence of detriments to standard reflex enhancement with a quick search.

These kind of reactions from a jumpy reflex enhanced user could be a source of social penalties
in line with the penalties suggested for heavily augmented characters in both the main book and augmentation.

EDIT: Reaction enhanced people overreacting is in part an artifact from SR3,
as is MBW causing TLE-x. However there is this bit:
QUOTE (AUG @ p.29)
> Same goes for reaction augs and wires. When you become used to
reacting at those speeds, everybody else seems impossibly sluggish
and tediously slow-moving. More than just grating, it can make you
cocky and feed a sociopathic sense of superiority. Not to mention the
jitters and jumpiness from always being on edge.
> Nephrine
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Brol_The_Mighty
post Mar 23 2010, 09:15 PM
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I was just working on my Cyber Sam backup character "Meat" using Universal Soldier as a concept...and reading through all the bio and cyber. I'd really like to give him some cyberware, but I just keep seeing the better bioware alternatives. He's going to be the heavy ranged backup (the group has none but a dual pistol wielder) but for the life of me, I couldn't find anything aside from the cybereye/cyberear stuff. I know I'll have at least the lower arms as cyber for the cyber gyromounts, and a fingertip compartment.....but for the actual gritty cyberware I'm at a loss. Why take full cyber arms/torso?
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kjones
post Mar 23 2010, 09:17 PM
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Cyberarms with built-in RC for the win. Sure, you can get that dorky harness, but where's the fun in that?
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Wandering One
post Mar 23 2010, 09:19 PM
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Thanks McCummhail, I really need to sit down with Augmentation one of these days/weeks (I've just browsed certain highlights still, my life tends to be busy). I never played SR3 though, so that was nice to know, the above was mostly a house rule we had for SR2, to help balance the 'always on' sammies, along with a number of willpower and perception mechanics we wrapped it in. It's hard not to deck the guy who just surprised you.

Curiousity though, do most of you play reflexes as true reflexes, or as a form of low end super-speed? The fluff below seems more like something the Flash would encounter then someone who's reflexes were keyed up. It's no fun to completely play them that way all the time, I know (Roll Instincts+Training... you shoot them, or you duck what you thought was a grenade (about a second later it's a strobe light...), we tried it, it sucked), but general perception of the gear itself. (Sorry if this seems a derail of the thread.)
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