Why bother with Delta 'ware reflexes?, Bio is cheaper Options

[Stahlseele]

Think the first Matrix-Movie where Neo one-handedly beats up mr.smith.
And the bullet-dodging. THAT's what reflex-work is supposed to do, nothing else.

[Cheshyr]

But, according to Augmentation he cant replace cyberware holes with bioware.

<twitch> Really?

[Stahlseele]

Wasn't that errataed?

[McCummhail]

Wasn't that errataed?

There is, unfortunately, no official errata for augmentation.
There may be some dev comments or FAQ entries, though.

[KnightIII]

My copy of Augmentation, p. 128 says "The effing munchkin PCs only get a dang hole for they same type of crap they took out." Underneath my handwriting the printed texts says you only get "credit for the same type (bio or cyber)"

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs* i still say they should have stayed with essence and bio index . .

[X-Kalibur]

Which was just as quirky, really. For most people it simply meant you could safely have 3 points worth of bio. (Bio Index was Essence + 3)

[Stahlseele]

So?
Higher than that meant you got other problems.
And by the way, in SR3, there was a twitch-roll for reflex worked characters.
for every ini die above your natural one, you got a +2 i think on your target number to not over reakt.

[McCummhail]

I'd missed the sidebar about redlining, thanks for pointing that out!

My pleasure. Redlining cyberlimbs brought some of the Power of cyber back for me.
Was nice to spring a Cyber-Samurai on players that had assumed mundanes inferior to an adept Swordsman.

Thanks McCummhail, I really need to sit down with Augmentation one of these days/weeks (I've just browsed certain highlights still, my life tends to be busy). I never played SR3 though, so that was nice to know, the above was mostly a house rule we had for SR2, to help balance the 'always on' sammies, along with a number of willpower and perception mechanics we wrapped it in. It's hard not to deck the guy who just surprised you.
Curiousity though, do most of you play reflexes as true reflexes, or as a form of low end super-speed? The fluff below seems more like something the Flash would encounter then someone who's reflexes were keyed up. It's no fun to completely play them that way all the time, I know (Roll Instincts+Training... you shoot them, or you duck what you thought was a grenade (about a second later it's a strobe light...), we tried it, it sucked), but general perception of the gear itself. (Sorry if this seems a derail of the thread.)

Once I had to answer outlandish and random questions from players, I started reading more closely.
Hypothetically the world seeming to move slower, etc would not literally happen unless you increased the frame per second intake of your vision and/or altered the perception speed of the mind.
Our table works on the notion that mundane speed enhancements increase the input/output speed of trigger/response, leading to the illusion of speed on the lower ends and nearly subconscious ID level action with higher level MBW.
We reserve Bullet-time time/perception warping for magic.

[Mongoose]

From the first time I saw how they'd changed Synaptic Accelerators in SR4, I thought they were a bit to good at the top end. That said- well, yeah, I can live with it. Sure, there's typically no reason to ever buy delta (or even beta, or arguably even alpha) wired 3- you get better performance for less with synaptic accelerators 3. Even without discounting the possible essence hole issues, you can also probably find better use for 1,000,000 and 2.5 e worth of cyber than delta wired 3. Sometimes it just doesn't pay off to try and push a technology... its better to start over with a new paradigm.

Hmm- can think of ONE case where Delta Wire 3 might be better. If you are spending lots of essence on bioware (even without the SA) than the essence cost ofyou cyber is effectively halved, meaning delta wired 3 would be less essence than synaptic 3. It gets even better if you have adapsyn.

The trick is where is the 1.5 essence coming from? Since the bio and cyber essence tracks are separate, installing cheap cyberware up front means you are in for some long and expensive medical treatments before having the essence hole available.

Nah, chances are if you bought cheap cyber, you have an essence greater than .75, but you have more than 1.5 e worth of cyber. So you replace the cheap cyber with different CYBER (or keep it, if its compatible with synaptic accelrators) and then you put in the SA, which only costs .75 essence because its cost is halved (less bio than cyber).

[Fatum]

Wasn't that errataed?

Nope, and why would it be?

[Stahlseele]

To clean up with the accounting.

[Fatum]

Well, it's not like your sammies switch their loadout daily. Not that much of bookkeeping.

[Tachi]

My copy of Augmentation, p. 128 says [Snip]
"credit for the same type (bio or cyber)"

Odd, mine does not say that. I've got CGL's Second printing, which do you have?

Mine says:

Most augmentations wether bioware, cyberware, genetech, or nanocybernetics, have an associated Essence Cost. When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an "Essence hole"--a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and Bioware, p.84, SR4) and her current Essence. This Essence hole never "heals" naturally. It may, however, be used as a "credit" for any new implants--simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant's Essence Cost before applying it to your total. In other words, if you remove one implant that had an Essence Cost of 1, and you install a new implant costing 1.1 Essence, your subtract the 1 point of Essence hole from the cost and only subtract 0.1 from your actual Essence.

Essence holes are important when replacing or upgrading implants. If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new one may well have lower Essence Cost than the old one and the character will develope an Esssence hole that she can fill with further augmentations. LIkewise, upgrading an implant often increases it's Essence Cost--characters might choose to remove another implant to create an Essence hole so she can upgrade her impant without losing more Essence.

Note that Essence lost from other sources--addiction , a blood spirit's Energy Drain power, etc.--does not leave an Essence hole that mat be filled up with implants. That Essence is lost for good.

Bold emphasis mine.

[McCummhail]

Odd, mine does not say that. I've got CGL's Second printing, which do you have?
Bold emphasis mine.

I have the pdf version which says:

This Essence hole
never “heals” naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit” for
any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware)—simply
deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before
applying it to your total.

I thought my rulebook had integrity, perhaps not?

[Tachi]

I have the pdf version which says:

I thought my rulebook had integrity, perhaps not?

Look on the Table of Contents and after the "Copyright paragraph", before the "Find us online". There should be a column centered blurb that states which printing the PDF was made from.

[MatrixJargon]

And this, I think, is a good thing. Even playing SR3, I love seeing that SR4 has the same SR3 technology, but cheaper and more effective, AND a new, SR4 version which is cheaper and more effective still. That is precisely the system shock, the fear of obsolecense (sp?) that I want to instill in a cyberpunk setting.

I can only half agree here. I remember most of my players main complaints were that, with bioware becoming more superior, it was starting to feel much less like cyberpunk. By fifth edition, once prices drop down, we'll probably be effectively playing...biopunk.

I liked the way bio/cyber was done in third edition to be honest; but I can roll with the punched. Most of the time only our fighters end up getting bio anyway. My hackers are still using encephalons and Math SPUSs

[McCummhail]

Look on the Table of Contents and after the "Copyright paragraph", before the "Find us online". There should be a column centered blurb that states which printing the PDF was made from.

Version 1.0 (July 2007), based on first printing by Catalyst Game Labs,
an imprint of InMediaRes Productions, LLC

Good point.
The reality of it really pisses me off.

Have a good night guys.
/ragequit the internet

[Saint Sithney]

Why take full cyber arms/torso?

Because it's unbelievably easy to hit your augmented max on all body stats with cyber replacement.

[Coldan]

There is, unfortunately, no official errata for augmentation.
There may be some dev comments or FAQ entries, though.

To give you some relief: The errata has been integrated in the german augmentation book. There are no different essence holes anymore, except essence lost through energy drain.

[Stahlseele]

And again, *does his best Soundwave impression* American Stuff inferior, German Stuff superior!
Also, Cybertorso/Limbs because there's such cool stuff for them. And you can switch them out in Seconds, if you have Spareparts around.
And they give more Boxes on Physical Damage Resistance Track.
Hmm, would Energy-Drain be the loophole you can use though?
2 Essence holes, one from Bio, one from Cyber, get essence sucked and now you only have one big essence hole?
Probably not, but i thought i'd ask anyway.

[Cheshyr]

So the official ruling is, unless you have the German version, you're screwed? Ahem... I mean... is the German version an updated version, or is that a typo? Does 2nd printing supersede 1st printing, errata-style? My Troll Cybersam really wants to know.

[Werewindlefr]

Synaptic booster doesn't allow for reaction enhancers, Wired reflexes III does. But when spending a millions in reflexware, you want to go the MBW way anyway.
Also, Wired III can be developed as part of a suite, even though suites with Wired III most likely don't exist, or are only used by Mitsuhama to outfit zero-zone hunters.

[Aerospider]

A point I haven't seen mentioned here is that cutting edge technology is rarely beneficial to everything it can apply to.

Ever notice how we don't have carbon fibre juice cartons that are resitant to crushing without increasing the weight too much? It's because the benefits don't warrant the expenditure and it happens all the time.

Not every deltaware clinic is going to offer everything in delta-form for various reasons anyway, but the one I've just illustrated is perfectly realistic.

[Coldan]

Hmm, would Energy-Drain be the loophole you can use though?
2 Essence holes, one from Bio, one from Cyber, get essence sucked and now you only have one big essence hole?

No, you don't. You get one essence hole through augmentations and another through essence drain or addiction or stuff like that. While you can use the first essence hole for new ware (doesn't matter whether bio or cyber), the other essence hole will be there forever and won't take any essence cost through ware. (Like you have some ware in you and can't remove it.) Only possibility: Use revitalization or gene augmented healing (yes, it can repair some essence loss!).

So the official ruling is, unless you have the German version, you're screwed? Ahem... I mean... is the German version an updated version, or is that a typo? Does 2nd printing supersede 1st printing, errata-style? My Troll Cybersam really wants to know.

Well, there seems to be erratas of all books, but they aren't published. We got only the errated version of the augmentation with two or three more cyber suits.