BattleTac Tactical Computer Help, I dont get how it works for non drones Options

[Shard55]

Hello,

I was wondering how the battle tec systems in SR 3 work, ive been reading and re-reading the description and game details but i still don't understand it.

So, i it says the basic set of sences is hooked up the tactical computer when installed. So i assume that mean you get 5 free dedicated ports hooked up to each sence. Correct?

What really is the differnce between a generic port and a dedicated port, what would you use each one for?

Hypothetical situation, me and my 3 friends want to set up a battletec system, how many ports(generic or dedicated) would be needed in the tactical computer, and what implants/gear would be needed by the other 3 members?

What gives a bonus to a tactical computer? i have a cyber replaced ear with healing amplification, low frequency, high frequency, a dampaner, and a select sound filer rating 5. Does high and low feq count as a sence? does each of these need its own tactical program? or are they all covered by the "hearing" program? What about thermal, vision, low light vision, magification vision, ect?

How do i get information from the team mates? how much can i get from them?

Any help would be great, thanks

[nezumi]

Going off memory...

It has to be an independent sense: hearing, sight, smell, touch (and non-natural like radar and ultrasound). Also, the sense has to be currently relevant, so touch is... generally not useful.

Generic ports can connect to any sense currently available. Dedicated ports ONLY draw on one sense, no matter what (so you connect it to say sight, which you'll almost always use, and save some cash).

There's a special piece of gear they get which gathers data and transmits it. I forget what it's called. You need that.

The bonuses aren't great. The 2nd edition version rocked, so they toned it waaaaay down now. It's okay when you have a LOT of people, and it's replicated across them all, but for small groups it's probably not worth it.

(Probably not too useful, I know. If you don't get an answer by tomorrow, I'll crack my books and provide details.)

[Shard55]

the weird thing is that generic ports are cheaper then dedicated ports which kinda blows my mind

if you could give me a full explanation when you can it would rock:) i kinda want one of these for my charecter, but i have no clue what all i will need to get the +4 rating

This post has been edited by Shard55: Mar 27 2010, 12:36 AM

[Kliko]

The answer is really, it depends.

First of all lets distinguish between the tactical computer - and BattleTac Network. They are not the same, though a tactical computer with BattleTac^tm compatability can act as a master-unit.

A BattleTac^tm master-unit offers the following benefits:

1) Sharing of information: Requires a simple action to communicate, or is automatic for linked (cybernetic) sensory information. The automatic link basically requires a BattleTac ^tm cyberlink linked through a datajack and DNI-equipped radio (minimum rating 4);
2) Use of indirect fire
3) Boost the unit's initiative through use of the small unit tactics skill

For members of the network to benefit they require 1x master-unit + rating 4 transceiver for information processing and an [x] number of either BattleTac^tm receiver-units or BattleTac^tm cyberlinks linked through minimum rating 4 transceivers. In my experience this information sharing is the most usefull feature, especially with linking and sharing of cybernetic senses (let the master-unit perform the analysis) and feedback piped through an image link and with senses automatically linked by using cybernetic senses (eye+ear replacements + accesoires).

Now the tactical computer is basically like a cybernetic BattleTac^tm master-unit ++. It provides additional benefits, specifically per 2 senses provided to the Tactical Computer it increases 1) the users combat pool 2) adds 1 to the user's small units tactics skill and 3) adds 25 % combat pool to surprise tests.

Standard the 5 basic senses are ported to the TacComp. Low-frequency hearing, thermographic vision all count as seperate senses in my opinion. Orientation Systems even count as two senses! Note though that each sense takes up a radio channel for purposes of maintaining the network. Secondly note that in order to gain any benefit a sense must be applicable to the current combat situation (you hear no low-frequency sounds = no benefit, no applicable taste=no sense). Finally you require a tactical sense program (50mp) per sense! in order to gain the benefits. This is for processing purposes.

The 5 free ports are dedicated to the user's own senses! The difference between dedicated and generic ports is that dedicated ports only work for a specific pre-determined sense (say vision). Generi ports are generally more flexible and expensive.

Conclusively I'd say BattleTac^tm network yeee!!!, but the Tactical Computer just isn't worht the nuyen. Imagine that all your teammies are hooked up and just benefit from the master-units information processing (which is operating remotely from the rigger's vehicle) and display that tactical information on their image links or helmet HUD's. That combination is usually a we win situation! Then again, remember... anything you guys have, so can the opposition.

[nezumi]

Okay, actually reading the rules now...

>So, i it says the basic set of sences is hooked up the tactical computer when installed. So i assume that mean you get 5 free dedicated ports hooked up to each sence. Correct?

No, you get one free dedicated port hooked up to each sense, for five in total. (Semantics, I know, but it's better to be clear.) As a GM, I'd rule you can shift some of those links over to other senses. I wouldn't require you waste cash on senses like taste.

>What really is the differnce between a generic port and a dedicated port, what would you use each one for?

I was correct with my initial assessment - generic port can hook to ANY sense, dedicated port only to one sense. The difference is, you need memory to store the sense software for a generic port. So let's say you have a generic port to cover your thermo, lowlight, and ultrasound vision. You have one generic port ($5k) + software for each ($15k) + memory (price depends on how you hook it up - I'd use datajack and non-cyber memory, which is pretty cheap) and you can only use ONE sense at a time. So if you have some senses which are mutually exclusive, a generic port may make sense. Otherwise, there's no advantage. You're paying $10k for each sense you will have available in the best conditions.

>Hypothetical situation, me and my 3 friends want to set up a battletec system, how many ports(generic or dedicated) would be needed in the tactical computer, and what implants/gear would be needed by the other 3 members?

In this case you are, as Kliko said, using the whole battletac system.

For you to create a battletac system with four guys, each guy needs the Battletac Cyberlink + radio. With nothing else, this provides a map of the battlefield, indirect fire, and probably gives you a bonus to the Small Units Tactics skill (herein called SUT).

You can have one person with the Tactical Computer + let's say 3 additional senses + Battletac Upgrade + radio, and he'll get all the advantages of the Battletac Cyberlink AND you may get up to 4 additional Combat Pool dice, 4 dice to SUT, and basically be immune to surprise (no CP penalty).

SUT translates also into higher initiative for you and everyone else in communication with you.

>What gives a bonus to a tactical computer? i have a cyber replaced ear with healing amplification, low frequency, high frequency, a dampaner, and a select sound filer rating 5. Does high and low feq count as a sence? does each of these need its own tactical program? or are they all covered by the "hearing" program? What about thermal, vision, low light vision, magification vision, ect?

I have to correct my previous statement. Cybernetic enhancements to your range of senses counts as a new sense.
Hearing amp is not a new sense. It may let you use your hearing sense when you might not otherwise be able to, however.
High frequency and low frequency ARE new senses, and would count (if appropriate, and they rarely are).
Dampener and select sound filter are *NOT* new senses.
Thermal and low-light, yes, magnification no (or, I should say, when you're using magnification, you're not using normal sight, so it's better for you to count it as no).

Looking at say high frequency and low frequency - you can EITHER buy a dedicated port for each, and perhaps be able to use both simultaneously, if appropriate, OR you can buy a generic port for them both, plus $5k each for the sense program, plus storage, and you will only be able to use ONE even if they both apply (but if neither apply, you don't get any bonus).

>How do i get information from the team mates? how much can i get from them?

From reading it, if your team mate was transmitting say input from his cybereyes over the radio, you could take a generic port + software and hook it up to that (that would be pretty useful use of a generic port, actually). You can get as much as they are transmitting and you have ports available to receive, however you do not benefit from having more than 8 ACTIVE senses (to be clear, this doesn't mean you shouldn't have 10 senses available. It's unlikely that every sense will apply in every case. But it would probably be easier to install an orientation system in each guy and leave it at that.)


ANY character can get the SUT skill and use a turn bumping up everyone else's initiative (usually by 1 point, by burning a complex action).
With the battletac system, you're now likely to add 1-2, still burning a complex action.
With the tactical computer + battletac, you're now likely to add 2-3, and it takes a simple action.


Some notes:
1) Battletac components are outside of the availability range of most runners. Since you need a TON of components, this means you really need to know someone to get one.
2) Tactical components really only shine if you've invested 6 skill points in the Small Units Tactics skill, and you have enough members in your group.

Really it's a specialty piece of gear made for squads. If you're running a merc campaign, or see a LOT of combat, it may pay out. Otherwise, you're looking at one squad leader spending an action each turn to boost everyone's initiative by a few points, and he gets a bonus to combat pool, all for about 2 essence + $500k. I can think of a lot of better things to spend that sort of change on.

Now if you're tricky, convince your GM to run on the 2nd edition version (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kliko]

The thing that always struck me as akward is that for SUT to work for others you had to spend a complex action (standard battetac) or simple action (TacComp) to communicate.
- Could your argue that in case you have teammies with the SUT-skill that they can use this skill to boost their own initiative?
- Then could you argue that when you're part of a BattleTac network piped through a DNI-equipped radio, datajack, BattleTac-cyberlink and image link that you get the appropiate tn modifiers for using the SUT skill?

Effectively what it does is increasing your (unit's) initiative 1-2 by using small unit tactics. Now doesn't that make for an effective reaction enhancer?

[Shard55]

Starting to see the dis-advantages, but i still want to know how it works, it seems like a really cool peice of gear, anyway So Hypothetical Situation 1

4 Players want to make a battle tec system.

1 Player wants to run the tactical computer, for whatever reason hes rich and has extra essence,
2 players want to contribute to and receive data from
1 player wants to receive and contribute data, but not cybernetically (maybe hes a mage or phys adept)


Player 1, Tactical computer guy, He will need...
Tactical Computer
BattleTac Modification

He also has an awesome cyber replaced ear with low and high frequency mods, he thinks he will only need 1 at a time so hes gonna get a generic port for both of them, and the software to run them.

-Dedicated Port to Low Freqency Hearing
-Dedicated Port to High Freqency Hearing

Now, the programs to run them are gonna take 100 MP memory, which he could use internal memory, or a data-jacked pocket computer Hes not sure which is more effective.

Because of the bonus to it, Hes gonna install an orientation system and link it by dedicated port

Orintation System
-Dedicated port to Orintation System

He needs to be able to display this data somehow i think so hes gonna need to pick up a...

Image Link

He needs a way to transmit this data so hes gonna pick up a
Radio(Rating 4)
Hes also kinda curious if there is a non cyberware alternative to this as peice is a whopping .75 essence and if there is, what are its drawbacks?

He is not sure if he will need a BattleTac Cyberlink, but he doubts it.

Hes also not sure if he will need a Router or a Direct Neural Interface for any of this stuff. He would like to be able to transmite Small Unit Tactics(SMU) over the radio with just a simple action


He knows he will have 3 other teammates with him, But hes not sure how many ports and or software hes gonna need for this

Player 2 is a decked out cybertank with cyber replaced eyes that have low light vision, thermal vision, and ultrasound vision. In addition to his natural 5 sences. does player 1 need ports for all these sences? Does he need software for them? If so which ones?

Player 3 Also has a cyber ear with low and high freqency ears and a decked out cyber eye with low light vision, thermal vision, and ultrasound vision and an orientation system. how many ports does player 1 need for his imput? If he already has the software for ligh and low freqency sound does he need it again to get player 3's info?

Player 4 is a mage and is only willing to commit to non cybernetic equipment, however he has no clue what his options are and such player 1 also has no clue. What gear would you need to contribute the most and receive the most you can as a mage. how many ports would player 1 need for it?

Player 2 is obviously kinda low on essence so he wants to keep that cost as low as possible as such hes going to take
a battleTac Cyberlink,

Now, he has alot of cybernetic sences like his orientation system, and cyber eyes, does he need a router to connect them to his cyberlink? Does he need a headware radio? or can he subsitute a non headware radio? Does he need a radio at all? what are the pros and cons? Does he need a router to link his cyberlink to his image link? How does he connect his natural sences to his cyberlink? is it already done, is it possible to do so at all?

Player 3's concerns are all similar to player 2's except he has a full military grade heavy armor with a heads up display instead of an image link, he wants to know what he would need to get this info to display here.


Player 4 has no clue what he needs and even if he can contribute. Also, he would love to get some of this data onto his heads up display unit as well. No cyberware is an option, not even a little bit He understands he most likely cannot add his sences to the master computer, but would still like to get some data from the others, and if he can contribute data, hes interested in how.


If anyone can answer any of these concerns, please do. Thanks in advance (and for all the great advice so far!)



Edit: Also wondering, do senses "stack"? If multiple people have the same sence, like regular sight, low freq hearing, thermal vision, or orientation systems, do you get the benefit from them?

This post has been edited by Shard55: Mar 27 2010, 08:44 PM

[Kliko]

Your questions make my head go *boom*. Well, here goes:

Player 1 will need:

-Tactical Computer(TacComp) with BattleTac^tm (BT)compatibility
- 1x Generic port for either low- or high frequency hearing (no visual modifications?)
- 1x Dedicated port for the orientation system
- 1x Generic port for sense feeds (type x modified sight) player 2
- 2x Generic ports for sense feeds player 3 (modified sight type x, modified hearing type y)
- 1x Dedicated port for sense feed player 3 (orientation system)
- 1x Orientation system
- Router
- 1-2 Datajacks
- 8x TacSense programs: Basic sight, Basic sound, Orientation system, Low-light vision, Thermograhpic vision, Ultrasound vision, Low-frequency hearing and High-frequency hearing
- 200 mp Memory depending on the amount of programs you want to run simultaniously
- Image link
- External Personal comm-unit, (minimum rating 4, but higher if you can get them), you link this device through a datajack (they're DNI-equipped) these baby's are in the Cannon Companion page 54

Player 2 will need:
- BT cyberlink
- Datajack
- [Router] depending on his other cyber
- Image link
- External Personall comm-unit (min rating 4)

Player 3 will need:
- BT cyberlink
- Datajack
- [Router] depending on his other cyber
- Image link
- External Personall comm-unit (min rating 4)

No extra software required for these sense (you already have them)

Player 4 will need:
- Some type of helmet or goggles with HUD
- BT-receiver unit
- External Personall comm-unit (min rating 4)

For player 2:
Yes, it looks like you're going to need a router depending on your internal cyber. Yes, he needs a radio, but it doesn't have to be a headware radio. Just jack a DNI-equipped radio in your datajack. Actually you link your cybernetic eye to your router, not the image link.

>>How does he connect his natural sences to his cyberlink? is it already done, is it possible to do so at all?

No, you don't link your natural senses. Just the cybernetic ones (for example with the Full eye and ear replacements)

For player 3:
Drop the full mil-spec gear. It escalates the force-spectrum and that turns your teammies into toast. You might ened a second datajack to get your BT cyberlinks data to your helmet visor... just get an image link, they're worth their essence in orichalum.


>>Edit: Also wondering, do senses "stack"? If multiple people have the same sence, like regular sight, low freq hearing, thermal vision, or orientation systems, do you get the benefit from them?

Yes, they do stack. In this case you'll have 10 senses adding +4 to your combat pool and +5 to your SUT skill and allows you to use your entire combat pool for surprise tests. In general your TacComp guy would increase the initiative of his teammies with 2-4. That's not bad..

[nezumi]

>- Could your argue that in case you have teammies with the SUT-skill that they can use this skill to boost their own initiative?

The rules say 'yes'. When M&M came out, every sammy having SUT was all the rage (since it comes down to a TN of 2 or 4).

>- Then could you argue that when you're part of a BattleTac network piped through a DNI-equipped radio, datajack, BattleTac-cyberlink and image link that you get the appropiate tn modifiers for using the SUT skill?

Without a tactical computer, Battletac gives you no benefit to using SUT for yourself. It only gives a benefit to using SUT for your team mates.

(However, if you DID have a tac computer, yes.)

>Effectively what it does is increasing your (unit's) initiative 1-2 by using small unit tactics. Now doesn't that make for an effective reaction enhancer?


Your average shadowrun team will have one guy who won't accept any cyberware, and one guy who is pretty combat ineffective regardless. Since M&M referenced, but failed to include rules for, a non-cyber battletac component, well... the first guy is sorta out of luck. So you'll have the two sams getting a boost, after pouring all that cash in. Funny thing is, since one guy already must have SUT to leverage the equipment, wouldn't it be cheaper just for the other guy to get SUT as well and do it for himself, and dump the battletac?

Yes, if you have a party of 5 mercs who regularly use indirect fire, it becomes useful. But for your standard, diverse shadowrun group, the benefits don't pan out.

Player 1, Tactical computer guy, He will need...
Tactical Computer
BattleTac Modification
He also has an awesome cyber replaced ear with low and high frequency mods, he thinks he will only need 1 at a time so hes gonna get a generic port for both of them, ...

By the rules, he will need a router, but many GMs say no, that's stupid (myself included). HOWEVER, each datajack comes with three ports, so if he has his headware memory replaced with a datajack + offline memory, radio replaced with datajack + radio, he now has 4 free ports to hook in his tactical computer. The senses plug directly into the tactical computer, so he doesn't need to wire those in.

>He knows he will have 3 other teammates with him, But hes not sure how many ports and or software hes gonna need for this

Depends on how many senses he already has covered. If he has 8 "will always apply senses", there's no benefit to more. Otherwise I'd get two dedicated ports for 'buddy's vision' or orientation systems or something like. (Your cap in this case is, I believe, 4, limited by the channels on the radio. This assumes you aren't using a channel for, you know, talking.)

Player 2 is a decked out cybertank with cyber replaced eyes that have low light vision, thermal vision, and ultrasound vision. In addition to his natural 5 sences. does player 1 need ports for all these sences? Does he need software for them? If so which ones?

The rules aren't 100% clear, but my understanding is player 1 needs a port for each of these senses he's receiving via radio. Player 2 just needs to connect the sense in question to his radio (and transmit).

Player 3 Also has a cyber ear with low and high freqency ears and a decked out cyber eye with low light vision, thermal vision, and ultrasound vision and an orientation system. how many ports does player 1 need for his imput? If he already has the software for ligh and low freqency sound does he need it again to get player 3's info?

Assuming dedicated port for each, 11 (5 base senses, + 4 cyber senses). I assume you're willing to drop touch, taste, et al., so really 6. Since you're capped still at 4, you'll want to choose the best (probably orientation system and maybe generic port for either low-light vision or hearing).

Player 4 is a mage and is only willing to commit to non cybernetic equipment, however he has no clue what his options are and such player 1 also has no clue. What gear would you need to contribute the most and receive the most you can as a mage. how many ports would player 1 need for it?

He can't wire in any of his senses, he can only receive information. You would have to buy the non-cyber battletac receiver (good luck with that!) He gets the bonus to SUT, but that's about it.

Player 2 is obviously kinda low on essence so he wants to keep that cost as low as possible as such hes going to take
a battleTac Cyberlink,

Now, he has alot of cybernetic sences like his orientation system, and cyber eyes, does he need a router to connect them to his cyberlink?

Strictly speaking, yes. However, if he has a datajack, he can leverage those ports as well. Remember though that most cybernetic senses are loaded into a single unit, so you'd need to hook up cyber eyes and cyber ears.

>Does he need a headware radio? or can he subsitute a non headware radio?

He needs a cyber-connected radio. You can connect a standard radio through a datajack, you just lose DNI control.

Does he need a router to link his cyberlink to his image link?

By the rules, each cybernetic device has one available port. Unless neither his cyberlink nor his eyes are connected to any other device (radio, cyberlink, etc.), no. However, most likely, yes, he needs a router or a datajack to hook them together.

How does he connect his natural sences to his cyberlink? is it already done, is it possible to do so at all?

The rules are unclear. I would assume it's not possible.

Player 3's concerns are all similar to player 2's except he has a full military grade heavy armor with a heads up display instead of an image link, he wants to know what he would need to get this info to display here.

If he does not need to feed anything into the battletac system, he should get an external unit and plug it into the armor. If he wants an internal system, he hooks battletac to the datajack, datajack to the suit (presumably the suit has a router to hook it to the onboard radio too, so he may be able to get away with only one radio).

>Player 4 has no clue what he needs and even if he can contribute.

Player 4 needs a rulebook (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Barring that, I would say he's like the mage player. If he has an external unit, he can use it to get the SUT bonus and indirect fire bonus. Otherwise, it doesn't help him.

Edit: Also wondering, do senses "stack"? If multiple people have the same sence, like regular sight, low freq hearing, thermal vision, or orientation systems, do you get the benefit from them?

The rules don't specify. I would rule that, as long as each sense is providing new information, yes (this is why you get a bonus for cybereyes, but not a bonus for each cyber eyeball).

(Kliko wrote it tidier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sorry for using different formats for quoting, apparently I had too many quotes.)

[Kliko]

@Nezumi: I was implying at the -2tn modifier for the individual BT-network team member with a BT-cyberlink and his individual SUT test for increasing initiative.

[Shard55]

- 200 mp Memory depending on the amount of programs you want to run simultaniously

In the book it says that the program can be run from a chip, head ware memory, or any other linked device. Does this mean you could skip the memory and run it off a datajacked pocket or wrist computer?

Also, i thought if you ran a dedicated port to something, you didn't need the program in memory? If you do need the memory for a dedicated port what the point of them? you can just get a generic port for Cheaper (dedicated port is 10000, generic is 5000) and it will have more flexibility..

This post has been edited by Shard55: Mar 28 2010, 05:40 PM

[Kliko]

In the book it says that the program can be run from a chip, head ware memory, or any other linked device. Does this mean you could skip the memory and run it off a datajacked pocket or wrist computer?

Also, i thought if you ran a dedicated port to something, you didn't need the program in memory? If you do need the memory for a dedicated port what the point of them? you can just get a generic port for Cheaper (dedicated port is 10000, generic is 5000) and it will have more flexibility..

Yup that is correct. Personally I'd install a TacComp in combination with a cyberlimb. That will save you tons of essence and allows you to run the programs from an optical memory chip in same cyberlimb.

I think the cost for dedicated/generic ports where switched by mistake.

[nezumi]

I don't know what the cyberlimb adds that a pocket doesn't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No, dedicated ports do not require memory. That's why the prices are as they are. The dedicated port already includes any software, memory, etc. in the stated price.