Rules Question, Tutorsofts and Vehicles Options

[KnightRunner]

Curious about a couple things.

1. How do Tutorsofts work when improving a skill group? They seem to be available only for a single skill.

2. Does Missions allow for purchasing a used vehicle? If so how does one determine how "used" the vehicle is? (i.e. what percentage of cost reduction?)

[rumanchu]

Curious about a couple things.

1. How do Tutorsofts work when improving a skill group? They seem to be available only for a single skill.

2. Does Missions allow for purchasing a used vehicle? If so how does one determine how "used" the vehicle is? (i.e. what percentage of cost reduction?)

1. They don't (by my reading, anyways). "These virtual private tutors aid the user in learning a specific skill." (SR4A, p.330).

2. I don't know on this one. -- EDIT: in re-reading the Missions FAQ, I have a two-part answer to this:
a) Since it's not listed as an optional rule in Arsenal (and isn't in the More Ways to Die chapter that is specifically stated to be disallowed outside of home games), I would say that you can.
b) Since the percentage of price discount is variable, however, the only "fair" thing to do is assume a 20% discount (the smallest discount available under the Used rules)

You could, I suppose, judge the used vehicle rules as requiring GM permission (since the discount amount is variable), thus making the used vehicle rules invalid for Missions, but I think that's a bit too strict.

[SaintHax]

Curious about a couple things.

1. How do Tutorsofts work when improving a skill group? They seem to be available only for a single skill.

2. Does Missions allow for purchasing a used vehicle? If so how does one determine how "used" the vehicle is? (i.e. what percentage of cost reduction?)

1. You'd need a Tutorsoft for each skill in the skill group. If the tutorsofts are at different level, then your GM would have to decide if it was an average or the least common denominator.

2. This is another one that your GM get's to decide. I took 20%, and not b/c I didn't want to ask for a higher discount, but the bigger the discount the more problems it has. At 20% I assume (I know that's dangerous) that it should work fine barring critical glitches. Since I won't be modding it, and I'm not a driver, that's fine.

[LurkerOutThere]

Errr i thought all the GM discretion stuff effectively defaults to no.

[KnightRunner]

1. You'd need a Tutorsoft for each skill in the skill group. If the tutorsofts are at different level, then your GM would have to decide if it was an average or the least common denominator.

Is there any source to back this up? I know it makes sense, but is there a clear RAW?

Errr i thought all the GM discretion stuff effectively defaults to no.

Well that's what I was curious about. The rule itself is not optional but there is Gm discretion in the amount? I was wondering if that made buying used vehicles a no-go.

[Wasabi]

What me and mine have heard is that the Missions GM's are not allowed to use anything except published non-optional rules and the Missions FAQ.
If its in a SR4 book (including any official errata's) and not optional (or if its anything allowed in the Missions FAQ) then you can use it.
(and thats it but thats enough)

[SaintHax]

Is there any source to back this up? I know it makes sense, but is there a clear RAW?

It's in RAW, but "clear" can be argued. The rules for using instructors for a skill group link you to page 134. In that page, it simply states "the instructor must also have the skill at a rating that equals or exceeds the rating the pupil wants to achive. The entry for skill groups (not quoting the paragraph, but pg. 118) provides the rest. After rereading this, I'd change my answer to you have to have tutor softs for all the skills at the level you need-- no average. The first response was from memory that I put too much stock in.

Errr i thought all the GM discretion stuff effectively defaults to no.

There are no optional rules, but the game has several areas where GM's decide-- see my earlier post about Spirits using Edge. If it's not banned per the SRM guidelines and FAQ, it's still canon SR4A, the GM still get's the call. However, b/c GM's differ in opinion on this, your GM can also say 'no' to used vehicles. Seeing as it's his/her call, that stands also (since there's no clear guidelines in the book in how he'd do it).

GM's use discretion constantly-- if a NPC uses edge, what tactics they use, what bonus's to give on social tests, when to require dice rolls or to just role play out tangent encounters. Or when they are forced to change the story, b/c the PC's blew up the escape chopper in Act 1 (so to speak). Although I do know GM's that would deus ex machina the chopper back, but I avoid playing with those b/c their mods are boring.

[forgarn]

There are no optional rules...

Actually there are several areas in the different books that specifically say "optional."

[LurkerOutThere]

WHat he's saying is nothing listed as optional is allowed.

[KnightRunner]

The FAQ is clear that optional rules are not allowed. Optional rules do exist, but the used vehicles are not one of them. I can find no written references to not allowing things that require GM descretion, but have seen it mentioned on these boards.

[LurkerOutThere]

More and more I'm realizing a lot of what I have been told is or is not permitted is not explicitly spelled out in the rules. (GM discretion rules being an example). Perhaps when our new campaign admin gets mroe situated we can get some discussion on this and get the FAQ updated. All the "word of mouth" restrictions have sen reasonable to me and things I would support, at the same time I do not want to be passing on bad information and the ambiguity leads to incosistent big con tables.

[rumanchu]

Well that's what I was curious about. The rule itself is not optional but there is Gm discretion in the amount? I was wondering if that made buying used vehicles a no-go.

Based on the wording of the Used Vehicles rules, I would say that the GM technically has discretion in how 'used' a vehicle is *based* on the amount. The only thing that's specifically listed as being "at the gamemaster's discretion" is purchasing non-functioning vehicles.

(I'll note that the table on p.312 of SR4A lists 'Item Used' as having a -20% modifier to the street value of an item, though every modifier in that table *is* at the GMs discretion -- it just seems a safe tradeoff to take -20% to the cost for +4 to the availability).