Restored: CGL Discussion THread Part 2 Options

[Stahlseele]

Frank is how one has to imagine Enemy Level 3 i guess.
Even if he is half way across the world and doing something more or less completely different, he STILL has his ways to make himself felt.

meanwhile you're forgiveing a man who broke confidance to spread a confidental letter to the masses, which acheived nothing but damaged someone's reputation?

my someone's a Hipocrite.

I know I'd never wanna employ Frank Trollman in ANY capacity, hope those wellfare checks are worth it frank

Frank is not on wellfare by any means.

[Centurion13]

Take home message: Randall Bills believes that he has a sign from a personal god that massive amounts of fraud is somehow OK because it will all work out somehow. We can all sit and ponder that for a moment, but basically it looks like Randall is not an incredibly rational person, and he would not be someone I would ask to judge character or make long range important decisions. Personal gods have a distinct tendency to advise people to hate the people the disciple already hates and trust the people the disciple already trusts.

Take home message two: Yes, it's that bad.

Take home message three: while Catalyst has had huge piles of money taken out of it by the guy nominally running the store, and the second in command says that theft should not be punished and is trying to guide the company with a literal ouja board in his head - it's important to remember that Shadowrun is not Catalyst. CGL is just a company, and if they are trying to use Christianesque name-it-and-take-it sorcery to avoid criminal charges of fraud, that doesn't actually mean that anything is wrong with the game. The License still belongs to Topps, and in two months they can lease it to someone who isn't trying to transform criminally negligent red ink into black with prayer.

-Frank

Take home message number one is a misinterpretation by a guy who is not personally involved and has no religious leanings. Fine. You have your strong points and I am inclined to agree with most of what you've said. You go too far on this, however. To call Mr. Bills 'not incredibly rational' after noting his religious leanings is to suggest the two have a connection. However, this lowers the same shabby gun on him that folks everywhere are aiming at you, Frank. I think those folks are wrong to do that to you, and I think you are wrong to do it to Randall Bills.

You overstepped on this one; don't poison the well. I don't think any of us wants this place to become another Internet Infidels.

Take home message two: I concur. The language alone warrants this conclusion.

Take home message three: Frank, really, what do you want us to do? Stop buying the product because it is contaminated with Christian cooties? Shun the writers and creators because they go to Temple on Sundays?

Geez, do you have any idea what a minority you 'rational' fellows really are? Your reliance on random acts of evolutionary progress requires just as much faith as that LDS fellow employs every day. You are descending into a froth and losing what I respect about you - your ability to stand back and give folks an analysis of the actual state of affairs.

Ease up, fella.

This post has been edited by Centurion13: Mar 27 2010, 10:37 PM

[Centurion13]

Personally, when people make appeals of faith to me, I just feel insulted that they would expect me to get all gushy and misty-eyed over it. Maybe Randall Bills should've kept #5 to himself, but man it does make for some HILARIOUS reading.

"I'm ignoring theft, betrayal, and allowing the person to continue these things because JESUS SAID SO!"

Hey, it's a better reason than some folks have. I have to deal with my son's doing things because... wait for it... he's bored.

Cent13

[Dwight]

Your faith in random acts of evolutionary progress requires just as much faith as that LDS fellow employs every day.

Did you actually just decide to go there???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) That is the place of illogical rants, general silliness, and stone-dead threads.


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[Stahlseele]

*Fire in the hole!*

[Centurion13]

You want to put this in Shadowrun terms? If this was a 'run I'd be saying to myself "The one you have to worry about is the one you don't see." Frank burnt pretty much every bridge there ever was to burn long, long ago and still has an axe to grind, which makes him the perfect front. This is so predictably in his character he had to be the obvious one.

As for the letter itself, I've seen stuff like this before as organizations enter crisis. Odd emotions rule the roost. People end up in positions where they must make choices under extreme pressure. They'll reach for things they had come to assume were solid, even long after evidence suggests that their assumptions should no longer be trusted. *shrug* Making decisions under extreme pressure is hard to start with, not the place most people are willing to increase the uncertainty by discarding past assumptions. Obviously I'm reading between the lines but that's the sense I'm coming away with.

P.S. Some people describe their decisions in terms of "faith", it's still their decision and I don't think that really is either here nor there. I'm a little disgusted that Bill's religious faith is being dragged into this argument in the manner that Frank is doing.

Amen to all of that. Thank you for summing that up.

Cent13

[Centurion13]

Did you actually just decide to go there???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) That is the place of illogical rants, general silliness, and dead threads.


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Huh. Well, he seemed to be writing as though it weren't self-evident, and as if it placed him on some sort of higher ground.

I mean, who the hell is Frank Trollman? Really? He's no better than me - a spectator who hasn't a nickel's worth of anything involved here, and what's he doing? Running another man into the ground. And for what? Because he's bored? When Frank comes up with information and observations that look like they have been carefully considered, I am all eyes and ears. But to see him try to claim Righteousness?

Pass.

I think your previous post said it all, but damn, Frank's goin' off the deep end.

[Nemo]

Looks like an perfect example of the Peter Principle on Part of Randall Bills.

[SecGuard]

Whats the Peter Principle?

The letter, as it was only for the freelancers effected by this mess, should have remained private.

[Redjack]

This thread was locked to allow the moderators time to discuss the content and impacts. A majority has elected to restore the thread, but we do have concerns about several violations of the TOS.

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

While the posting of the letter was not a violation of that TOS, numerous personal attacks, as well as the attacks on religion were. Administrative warnings are being distributed for those attacks. In one or more cases, the culmination of administrative warnings has generated a board suspension.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor, of never being trusted to write for Shadowrun again (even if the problems get addressed), and so on.

So, basically, that's what happend in the end.

[Redjack]

Frank is not banned, heck, if he had steered clear of the religious attacks he would actually be in the clear right now.

[Stahlseele]

Hey thanks for bringing this back Redjack! ^^
What, Frank is not banned? O.o
I'd have figured it'd be done by now.
Also, on rpg.net he said his account was suspended till 2037 i think . .

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Frank is not banned, heck, if he had steered clear of the religious attacks he would actually be in the clear right now.

Thanks for clearing that up – sadly, AH hasn't been quite this fortunate elsewhere.

[Dumori]

I have to say franks religious attacks where not as bad in my eyes as the one brought up after his statements though he could have eased off on his tone.

[Redjack]

All personal attacks are still under review. We are not done dealing with the aftershocks. The only thing I can say is 'please play nice'. I hate having to deal with warnings, I'd rather be posting in my pbp games when online...

To be clear, Frank's account was initially locked to allow the moderation staff time to pow-wow. Sometimes the 'instant' nature of the Internet causes a chain of events that might be a little different in the meat world... But hey, Shadowrunners of all people know that dealing with the Matrix changes the rules a little.

[Method]

Also, on rpg.net he said his account was suspended till 2037 i think . .

IIRC (Redjack can correct me if I'm wrong) but the mods sometimes lock an account until some ridiculous arbitrary date (like 2037) just as an indicator that it needs to be reviewed. If it was til Sept 2010, people would assume judgement passed and not give it a second thought.

[Stahlseele]

ah i see

[Dr.Rockso]

I appreciate having the thread restored, but wouldn't it make sense to keep it locked? The discussion has moved to the the 3rd thread and having one of these things to keep track of is more than enough.

[Caine Hazen]

As was stated, we have a new thread for this here. We're leaving this in place and locking it to avoid bloat on the DB and to keep it on one thread like we asked.