How do mundanes survive magic?, OMG Stunball! Options

[KnightIII]

This has likely been hashed over somewhere else, but my searches have brought up alot of things that dont really relate to my question.

The average person has around 3 Willpower. Give or take a point. The average caster has around 4 spellcasting and 4 magic (not even playing min max). So if my understanding of the rules is correct, a mage rolls 8 dice against a measly 3 willpower. And when the target(s) usually fail to avoid it they automatically take the full Force of the spell plus net hits. With no way to migitate the damage. One or two of those will stun someone to sleep or kill em outright in the case of manabolt (ball). But manabolts arnt even nessesary if you stun and preform a coup de grace.

So, short over over populating the world with counter spelling mages, how do mundane folk (like Runners or security personel) survive that?

[rumanchu]

This has likely been hashed over somewhere else, but my searches have brought up alot of things that dont really relate to my question.

The average person has around 3 Willpower. Give or take a point. The average caster has around 4 spellcasting and 4 magic (not even playing min max). So if my understanding of the rules is correct, a mage rolls 8 dice against a measly 3 willpower. And when the target(s) usually fail to avoid it they automatically take the full Force of the spell plus net hits. With no way to migitate the damage. One or two of those will stun someone to sleep or kill em outright in the case of manabolt (ball). But manabolts arnt even nessesary if you stun and preform a coup de grace.

So, short over over populating the world with counter spelling mages, how do mundane folk (like Runners or security personel) survive that?

Well, the short answer is that they don't.

The long answer is that they don't, which is why the general populace as a whole tends to fear and distrust people who can use magic. It's precisely because of that vulnerability that laws in the Sixth World tend to be a little stricter towards those who can use magic.

[Khyron]

The best way to survive that is to shoot the mage in the face before they get you.

[Valashar]

This is also why security personnel and experienced runners alike live under a single rule when it comes to combat against opposition including Awakened: Drop the mage first.

Of course the utter scarcity of the Awakened helps a bit. Only 1% of the metahuman population is Awakened, and only a portion of those with the Talent actually develop it. And of those that do develop it, full magicians are the smallest group, with most being adepts and mystic adepts. Then figure that the majority of even this limited population are more or less normal, law abiding folk with no connection to either criminal activity or security operations (I may have imagined reading this, but there's a quote bouncing in my brain about the majority of them being into academics or research), and the overall threat level of mages remains fairly even with that of other attack forms; physical and matrix.

Sure, the one in two hundred runners a security force faces that's a strong, capable, criminal mage is a massive threat in and of themselves. But not so much as to overpower the other, more common threats to their lives and safety.

[Teulisch]

well...... The corps hire their own magical support, the governments have their own magical support.....

really, you survive magic the same way you survive being mugged at gunpoint- for most people its not something to worry about. Sure it could happen, but it probably wont unless you go into the wrong part of town. as long as you stay in a safe neighborhood and work for a good company, youll be fine.

and really, the corp mages are there to deal with enemy magic, the drone net and armed gaurds and paracritters are there to kill everything else. magic is a very high specialization after all.

[Faraday]

and really, the corp mages are there to deal with enemy magic, the drone net and armed gaurds and paracritters are there to kill everything else. magic is a very high specialization after all.

Drones geek mages so hard it's not even funny.

Stun spells don't work on them, they have heavy resistance to physical spells, and they often carry big, scary weapons and have decent armor. Pretty much the bane of every mage in existence that doesn't happen to also carry a rocket launcher.

[Ol' Scratch]

Pretty much the bane of every mage in existence that doesn't happen to also carry a rocket launcher.

Or a spirit with the Accident power. Or just a spirit in general.

[Valashar]

Drones geek mages so hard it's not even funny.

Stun spells don't work on them, they have heavy resistance to physical spells, and they often carry big, scary weapons and have decent armor. Pretty much the bane of every mage in existence that doesn't happen to also carry a rocket launcher.

Where is a drone's heavy resistance to physical spells coming from? I can't find any mention that an indirect combat spell has to overcome its object resistance. And while drones do often have impressive armor for their size, such spells are resisted by half impact armor. So a drone gets hit, cuts their armor by half then takes that total doubled (objects resist indirect combat spells with armor x2), which will usually end up being their original armor total again.

In short, a drone is no more or less resistance to a firebolt than your average armored runner. And against electricity or water elemental effects can be much more vulnerable.

[wargear]

I played in a game where we had a heavy magical complement, 1 full combat mage and three spellcasting adepts, and we walked all over everything we met initially...until our actions invoked an escalation in response. Para-critters became more common, and astral defenses nastier. Then the corps started using nasty nasty pharmaceuticals to wipe out the focus needed for magic on their sites, hiring merc mages, summoning bigger and badder spirits. Fatbac!

There is a lot the corps can do to drop the hammer on rogue mages.

Ordinary folks, however, will get walked over.

Unless they get initiative... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[cndblank]

Out numbering some one a thousand to one never hurt either.

[Faraday]

Where is a drone's heavy resistance to physical spells coming from? I can't find any mention that an indirect combat spell has to overcome its object resistance. And while drones do often have impressive armor for their size, such spells are resisted by half impact armor. So a drone gets hit, cuts their armor by half then takes that total doubled (objects resist indirect combat spells with armor x2), which will usually end up being their original armor total again.

In short, a drone is no more or less resistance to a firebolt than your average armored runner. And against electricity or water elemental effects can be much more vulnerable.

Indirect combat spells consistently have higher DV than their direct cousins. Not to mention, you HAVE to use physical damage spells to even touch a drone, which makes the drain even worse. The lowest drain indirect combat spell that can affect drones is the corrode/melt/sludge line, which is pretty much the slay spell for drones. AT BEST you are dealing with Force/2 with a touch spell. More likely, you'd do a Melt Spell targeting Electronics or something, which is Force/2+2.

[Faraday]

This space for rent.

[nezumi]

Don't piss off mages.
Make sure that if you do piss off a mage, you have enough witnesses that can call in security (because even a mage can be arrested)
Don't let the mage see you (either by not wandering around where mages are, by using tinted glass or closing the door behind you, or by just sticking to the shadows - combine this with enforced 'do not enter areas' and you're golden)
Using technology, especially drones and card readers, which are extremely mage proof

[Shinobi Killfist]

Drones geek mages so hard it's not even funny.

Stun spells don't work on them, they have heavy resistance to physical spells, and they often carry big, scary weapons and have decent armor. Pretty much the bane of every mage in existence that doesn't happen to also carry a rocket launcher.

I'd say non-min maxed mages have a problem with drones.

Magic 5
Spell Casting 6(spec combat spells)
Totem (combat spells)
Power Focus 4(bought with lots of BP and the 5 point perk that gives you access to up to Avail 20 gear) Sadly this is really worth it because of how much you save on binding it. It kind of works in my mind because you are spending BP on buying it, instead of in game where your karma and money are different pools.
= 19 dice for throwing a power bolt, you will usually hit the threshold necessary to obliterate a drone. If it was Power Ball you also obliterated a 9 meter radius with the drone.

While we were aggressively testing some of the rules I had built a character like this. Magic wasn't even my only trick thanks to charisma being the awesome stat that it is and a drain stat. It usually took 2 spells to take out a citymaster or other heavy vehicle though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Indirect combat spells consistently have higher DV than their direct cousins. Not to mention, you HAVE to use physical damage spells to even touch a drone, which makes the drain even worse. The lowest drain indirect combat spell that can affect drones is the corrode/melt/sludge line, which is pretty much the slay spell for drones. AT BEST you are dealing with Force/2 with a touch spell. More likely, you'd do a Melt Spell targeting Electronics or something, which is Force/2+2.

Is that all, Physical spell is +1 modifier, elemental is +2, shouldn't that be f/2+3 or does the corrode line have a cost break for some reason.(I am assuming corrode=acid or something)

f/2+2 isn't that hard to resist. Force 7 lets say= 5 drain yeah you need 15 dice to soak it completely, but is it that bad to take 1 or 2 boxes now and then when fighting your weak spot.

[Faraday]

I'd say non-min maxed mages have a problem with drones.

Magic 5
Spell Casting 6(spec combat spells)
Totem (combat spells)
Power Focus 4(bought with lots of BP and the 5 point perk that gives you access to up to Avail 20 gear) Sadly this is really worth it because of how much you save on binding it. It kind of works in my mind because you are spending BP on buying it, instead of in game where your karma and money are different pools.
= 19 dice for throwing a power bolt, you will usually hit the threshold necessary to obliterate a drone. If it was Power Ball you also obliterated a 9 meter radius with the drone.

While we were aggressively testing some of the rules I had built a character like this. Magic wasn't even my only trick thanks to charisma being the awesome stat that it is and a drain stat. It usually took 2 spells to take out a citymaster or other heavy vehicle though.

Do keep in mind that the object resistance of a drone is 6 or MORE. The GM could easily adjust resistances on a drone to 10 or something, making direct spells a bit iffy on them.

[DireRadiant]

Bullets cost 2 nuyen, and everyone can get as many as they need....

[Faraday]

Is that all, Physical spell is +1 modifier, elemental is +2, shouldn't that be f/2+3 or does the corrode line have a cost break for some reason.(I am assuming corrode=acid or something)

f/2+2 isn't that hard to resist. Force 7 lets say= 5 drain yeah you need 15 dice to soak it completely, but is it that bad to take 1 or 2 boxes now and then when fighting your weak spot.

The spell line I was talking about will only affect a specific material that is chosen at its creation. The GM may rule you need to make a hole in the armor or something, or that that spell line won't even affect drones period. Looks like it's more like force/2+3 for a spell that will consistently smack a drone.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd say non-min maxed mages have a problem with drones.

Magic 5
Spell Casting 6(spec combat spells)
Totem (combat spells)
Power Focus 4(bought with lots of BP and the 5 point perk that gives you access to up to Avail 20 gear) Sadly this is really worth it because of how much you save on binding it. It kind of works in my mind because you are spending BP on buying it, instead of in game where your karma and money are different pools.
= 19 dice for throwing a power bolt, you will usually hit the threshold necessary to obliterate a drone. If it was Power Ball you also obliterated a 9 meter radius with the drone.

While we were aggressively testing some of the rules I had built a character like this. Magic wasn't even my only trick thanks to charisma being the awesome stat that it is and a drain stat. It usually took 2 spells to take out a citymaster or other heavy vehicle though.

Hey Shinobi Killfist... I thought that you were talking about NON Min-Maxed Mages... That would be Magic 3 and Spellcasting 3, No Power Focus, I will give them the Mentor and Specialization though... That would be 10 Dice to overcome Threshold of 5 (Object Resistance Anyone?) with Direct Combat Spells... Elemental Attack Spells are same dice pool, Generally Higher Drain, and can be Dodged (the Drone gets a Reaction roll against the spell... and THEN it gets to resist the Damage... The Average Mage is pretty hosed against the average Drone... in my opinion...

But then again... Shadowrunning mages are generally a cut above average...

Keep the Faith

[Valashar]

Indirect combat spells consistently have higher DV than their direct cousins. Not to mention, you HAVE to use physical damage spells to even touch a drone, which makes the drain even worse. The lowest drain indirect combat spell that can affect drones is the corrode/melt/sludge line, which is pretty much the slay spell for drones. AT BEST you are dealing with Force/2 with a touch spell. More likely, you'd do a Melt Spell targeting Electronics or something, which is Force/2+2.

While drain does act as a limiting factor to mages in how strong they make their spells, it does not in itself make drones more resistant to magic. And the best way to drop drones in my experience has always been electrical spells. Drones take the physical damage from ball lightning (remembering that metal armor provides NO PROTECTION), then have to roll their body + armor vs. the initial spellcasting test to avoid being shutdown for at least 2 combat turns. And if a mage needs more time than that to either deal with the threat or get out of there, then they deserve to get gacked. While this tactic isn't hard to defend against (nonconductive armor modification isn't exactly expensive after all), such defenses aren't on the standard equipment lists of any drone I can think of without digging.

If nothing else, it gives them time enough to get a spirit in to be their 'meat' shield (or, at least, to shield their meat).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Do keep in mind that the object resistance of a drone is 6 or MORE. The GM could easily adjust resistances on a drone to 10 or something, making direct spells a bit iffy on them.

Actually... Object Resistance of Drones is 5+... See the SR4A Book for the relevant Object Resistance Ratings... The Table is on Page 183...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While drain does act as a limiting factor to mages in how strong they make their spells, it does not in itself make drones more resistant to magic. And the best way to drop drones in my experience has always been electrical spells. Drones take the physical damage from ball lightning (remembering that metal armor provides NO PROTECTION), then have to roll their body + armor vs. the initial spellcasting test to avoid being shutdown for at least 2 combat turns. And if a mage needs more time than that to either deal with the threat or get out of there, then they deserve to get gacked. While this tactic isn't hard to defend against (nonconductive armor modification isn't exactly expensive after all), such defenses aren't on the standard equipment lists of any drone I can think of without digging.

If nothing else, it gives them time enough to get a spirit in to be their 'meat' shield (or, at least, to shield their meat).

However, I imagine that the Ceramic Armor is perfectly useable against that Electrical Damage, and you STILL have to actually hit the Drone... against that Elemental Damage Spell, you still get the Drone's reactive Dodge and afdter that, you STILL have to actually hurt it... And don't forget... Lightning Bolt is Force/2+3 Drain and Lightning Ball is Force/2+5... That is no joke for soaking your drain...

As for Standard Equipment... DO YOU use Drones with Standard Equipment... Nonconductive Armor is the FIRST thing I generally install on the Drone, for that very reason...

Keep the Faith

[Valashar]

And the object resistance only matters against direct combat spells, not indirect ones.

Leaving the realm of combat spells, you get to any manipulation spell that affects electronic sensors. If it's being cast on you, then the object resistance doesn't apply, although I confess that I don't know how else such spells would be affected as far as a drone trying to 'see' around them.

EDIT: All below added after I realized that TJ had responded to my post while I was typing this one.

And yes, nonconductive armor is very nearly the first thing I pull out to add to my gear for any character. But the OP's question was dealing with brick-average mundanes. I took this to include brick-average drones as well. And if brick-average drone armor was naturally nonconductive, then that wouldn't be an available modification option as it wouldn't be needed.

And again, as I stated above, drain is of course a limit on how strong a mage will want to make their spells. But it is not in itself something that makes drones more resistant to magic.

[Faraday]

Actually... Object Resistance of Drones is 5+... See the SR4A Book for the relevant Object Resistance Ratings... The Table is on Page 183...

Keep the Faith

Highly Processed Objects
(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)
6+

That's what my SR4A book tells me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Highly Processed Objects
(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)
6+

That's what my SR4A book tells me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Apparently you have an inaccurate Copy... Both My Copy of the Book and the Current PDF state 5+...
AS I said... On Page 183...