[X] My Assistant

[Glyph]

This has likely been hashed over somewhere else, but my searches have brought up alot of things that dont really relate to my question.

The average person has around 3 Willpower. Give or take a point. The average caster has around 4 spellcasting and 4 magic (not even playing min max). So if my understanding of the rules is correct, a mage rolls 8 dice against a measly 3 willpower. And when the target(s) usually fail to avoid it they automatically take the full Force of the spell plus net hits. With no way to migitate the damage. One or two of those will stun someone to sleep or kill em outright in the case of manabolt (ball). But manabolts arnt even nessesary if you stun and preform a coup de grace.

So, short over over populating the world with counter spelling mages, how do mundane folk (like Runners or security personel) survive that?

A combat-oriented shadowrunner of any stripe can usually take down an "average" person fairly easily. Runners tend to have better Willpower and higher Edge, and are also more likely to have friendly counterspelling handy. Security guards are likely to have magical backup, too, as well as a security setup designed to give intruders visual penalties and give the guards visual cover. Depending on the type of facility, there might also be a background count to deal with.

Personally, I think spirits present more potential problems to mundanes than spells. A high Force spirit can pretty much waltz through a moderate level of mundane opposition unscathed. On the other hand, wards (which should be fairly common) can reign them in a great deal.

One thing to remember about magic is that it might be rare in general, but it is fairly common in certain areas such as shadowunning, corporate security, and underworld factions.

[Valashar]

Highly Processed Objects
(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)
6+

That's what my SR4A book tells me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

SR4A, my copy as well, has a 5+ in that spot on the table.

[Faraday]

Apparently you have an inaccurate Copy... Both My Copy of the Book and the Current PDF state 5+...
AS I said... On Page 183...

Yup, same page. Guess my PDF is outdated or something.

The comment on the GM "increasing" a drone's object resistance stands, however.

[Ol' Scratch]

I dislike it when the rules add things like that. It basically just supports the "do whatever you want" fiat a GM already has without regard for the intended purpose of rules in an RPG: To give solid, well-defined methods of resolving conflicts and interactions. When you have a rule that basically says "5 or, yanno, whatever the hell you want to use," it's pretty damn lame. Especially when people start latching on to it in discussions like this one.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Drones geek mages so hard it's not even funny.

Any spell that causes electric damage can fry a drone.
Heck, anything that causes electric damage can fry a drone.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Hey Shinobi Killfist... I thought that you were talking about NON Min-Maxed Mages... That would be Magic 3 and Spellcasting 3, No Power Focus, I will give them the Mentor and Specialization though... That would be 10 Dice to overcome Threshold of 5 (Object Resistance Anyone?) with Direct Combat Spells... Elemental Attack Spells are same dice pool, Generally Higher Drain, and can be Dodged (the Drone gets a Reaction roll against the spell... and THEN it gets to resist the Damage... The Average Mage is pretty hosed against the average Drone... in my opinion...

But then again... Shadowrunning mages are generally a cut above average...

Keep the Faith

I was, my example was an atrocity that is min maxed, showing how they don't have a problem with drones. A what I consider a normal shadowrunning mage, they would have problems.(I usually am throwing 9-12 dice for magic at the start)

Yup, same page. Guess my PDF is outdated or something.

The comment on the GM "increasing" a drone's object resistance stands, however.

Sure, but a drone would be a hard sell IMO for increasing the threshold, especially when it is one of the example for 5+. Now the citymaster I mentioned that i can see having a 6 or higher OR threshold due to its complexity+size. Unfortunately there are not even guidelines on how to deal with the + aspect of this. Is it size, extra complexity, what makes it go past 5.

[KnightIII]

Thank you all very much. Drones seem the answer to the mana based mage for mundane runners and and security alike. While not foolproof, they at least up the survivability without increasing mage population numbers. Oh, and a couple of hell hounds too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Valashar]

Against a mage that loves their mana spells, drones are a good answer.

Yes, and paracritters, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tomothy]

Why paracritters?

[Ascalaphus]

On the level of a lone security guard, mages are terrifying; there's little helping that. On the corporate security level, there are a lot of ways to limit the damage they can do;

- Use teams of varied composition (guard AND drones), so that overspecialized mages get in trouble
- Don't stand near together; that way the mage needs more than one fireball
- Avoid long lines of sight
- Use bound spirits for fast response;
- Plenty of Wards
- Cramped areas limit the use of area spells; mages prefer not to hit themselves, but decreasing spell diameter also costs dice on the spellcasting test
- Use many layered defenses; exhaust the mage by making him cast lots of spells
- All guards are trained to take cover, making LOS harder to establish
- Kill the lights and pour in thermal smoke; the HTR team will use ultrasound or radar
- Background Count
- You can, if you're extreme, hide bombs under the floor; if you've detected a mage, lure him over the bomb and detonate. With hard-wiring and through a secure, separate system of course. You can always claim that the magical terrorist justified extreme response.

Also, any criminal act committed with magic is automatically Premeditated under UCAS law, according to Street Magic. High-Force castings tend to leave impressive astral signatures; the time it takes to clean them up helps your HTR team arrive in time to catch them.

[DuctShuiTengu]

Well, there's various other magical stuff (from paracritters to awakened plants to wards to background counts to other mages) that can be used to cut down on the effectiveness of spellslingers.

However, for limiting mages via strictly mundane means, mostly it comes down to two things:

Object resistance: For most things that you're going to be using against an enemy mage, this will be significantly harder to overcome than another metahuman's opposed roll - not to mention that many of the popular direct combat (and illusion) spells don't work against electronic devices at all.

Visibility: Mages need line of sight to target spells at all. Find a way to completely deny that (one-way glass for your vehicle's (or PMV's) windows, for instance) and you're no longer a valid target for their spells at all. Failing that, rack up the visibility penalties as much as you can to hamper their spellcasting. You'll need to invest a bit more to make sure that you're not being blinded by it too, but

Combine these for maximum effect. Rather than just sending in a handful of Dobermans toting LMGs to deal with the mage, kill the lights, toss a few thermal smoke grenades and flash-paks into the room, -then- send in the Dobermans toting LMGs (and equipped with radar) in to gun down the almost-blind mage who's still left with the less enviable choice between high-drain indirect spells and direct spells that need to get through Object Resistance while suffering massive dice-penalties (potentially as high as -10) because they can barely see where they're throwing magic.

[X-Kalibur]

Just throw a murdercycle at the mage. Problem solved.

[KnightIII]

Well, there's various other magical stuff (from paracritters to awakened plants to wards to background counts to other mages) that can be used to cut down on the effectiveness of spellslingers.

However, for limiting mages via strictly mundane means, mostly it comes down to two things:

Object resistance: For most things that you're going to be using against an enemy mage, this will be significantly harder to overcome than another metahuman's opposed roll - not to mention that many of the popular direct combat (and illusion) spells don't work against electronic devices at all.

Visibility: Mages need line of sight to target spells at all. Find a way to completely deny that (one-way glass for your vehicle's (or PMV's) windows, for instance) and you're no longer a valid target for their spells at all. Failing that, rack up the visibility penalties as much as you can to hamper their spellcasting. You'll need to invest a bit more to make sure that you're not being blinded by it too, but

Combine these for maximum effect. Rather than just sending in a handful of Dobermans toting LMGs to deal with the mage, kill the lights, toss a few thermal smoke grenades and flash-paks into the room, -then- send in the Dobermans toting LMGs (and equipped with radar) in to gun down the almost-blind mage who's still left with the less enviable choice between high-drain indirect spells and direct spells that need to get through Object Resistance while suffering massive dice-penalties (potentially as high as -10) because they can barely see where they're throwing magic.

Oh, hey... Visibility modifiers affect a mages spellcasting roll? Its not as simple as "Oh, I can see that guy, it might only be a shadowy blob, but thats enough for LoS. Fire in the hole!"

[Malachi]

Sadly this is really worth it because of how much you save on binding it. It kind of works in my mind because you are spending BP on buying it, instead of in game where your karma and money are different pools.

To have a bound Focus at chargen you must spend BP equal to its Force. You're right: if this wasn't the case, Foci at chargen would be a ridiculously good deal, but that's not the case, so it's a little more balanced.

Foci
When buying gear, Awakened characters can purchase foci, magically
enchanted objects that can increase a magician’s power (see Foci,
p. 199). To use a focus effectively, the magician or adept must bond the
focus to him. This requires time and effort.
A starting Awakened character can begin the game with one or
more foci already bonded. First, the character must purchase the focus
with Gear nuyen. To bond a focus to the character, the player must then
spend a number of BP equal to the focus’s Force. The total Force of
all bonded foci is limited to five times the character’s Magic attribute.
A magician cannot bond more foci than their Magic attribute.

[Malachi]

Oh, hey... Visibility modifiers affect a mages spellcasting roll? Its not as simple as "Oh, I can see that guy, it might only be a shadowy blob, but thats enough for LoS. Fire in the hole!"

Cover will also give the target of the spell a bonus to DP they are using to resist.

[Ascalaphus]

To have a bound Focus at chargen you must spend BP equal to its Force. You're right: if this wasn't the case, Foci at chargen would be a ridiculously good deal, but that's not the case, so it's a little more balanced.

It's still a good deal; binding it costs 32 karma if you do it later on.

[Malachi]

It's still a good deal; binding it costs 32 karma if you do it later on.

Agreed. Hence "a little more balanced."

[Octopiii]

Here are some ideas for corporate security procedures to deal with mages.

[Cergorach]

Your average guard will as easily fall to a stun bolt as it would to a well placed taser dart. That why security calls in every 5-10 minutes. Back up teams do tend to have mages, not to mention your not so average security guard. While mages are rare compare to the general populace, they do tend to concentrate in certain areas, one of those areas is runners AND security.

We also have cameras, sensors, etc. to spot the unconscious (or dead) guards. While it is generally relatively easy to be not detected, missing security guards are easily spotted. That's when back-up is called in and your troubles start.

Your generally not hired to take out the average security guard, they are just an obstacle that you have to overcome to get at the real price. If your solution is to stun them (or kill them), you have already failed.

Runners are a fact of corporate live, theft etc. is accepted and your role in it is generally forgiven, so long as your willing to work for everyone. The moment your causing a lot of collateral damage, such as dozens and dozens of dead security guards, your going to be hunted down. Equipment is generally easily replaced (a couple of drones, a blown security door, lots of broken windows), but training people is really expensive and the corp wants wage slaves that feel moderately save when working for the corp. I'm not saying that a megacorp will go ballistic over a couple of casualties, but systematically eradicating security forces is going to make you rather powerful enemies.

Using a stun bolt or a any spell for that matter leaves a trail that can be followed back to you if someone is dedicated enough...

[Mordinvan]

Where is a drone's heavy resistance to physical spells coming from? I can't find any mention that an indirect combat spell has to overcome its object resistance. And while drones do often have impressive armor for their size, such spells are resisted by half impact armor. So a drone gets hit, cuts their armor by half then takes that total doubled (objects resist indirect combat spells with armor x2), which will usually end up being their original armor total again.

In short, a drone is no more or less resistance to a firebolt than your average armored runner. And against electricity or water elemental effects can be much more vulnerable.

Its more that in the copy of the BBB I have there is no reference to them NOT needing to over come OR, and as such the general rule of you need to overcome OR applies.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was, my example was an atrocity that is min maxed, showing how they don't have a problem with drones. A what I consider a normal shadowrunning mage, they would have problems.(I usually am throwing 9-12 dice for magic at the start)

Cool, SO I was not going Insane there... Glad to have that clarified...

I too start my Mage characters aroung the 9-12 Dice Range... My Current Backup Character hasa a SPellcasting pool of 9 for Manipulation Spells (5 for everything else)... it is an interesting character...

Keep the Faith

[rumanchu]

Its more that in the copy of the BBB I have there is no reference to them NOT needing to over come OR, and as such the general rule of you need to overcome OR applies.

Given that they make a point of specifying in the rules for Direct Combat spells that you have to overcome OR, make no mention of it in the rules for Indirect Combat spells, and the example given (on p.196 of SR4 and p.204 of SR4A) involves using an Indirect Combat spell against a drone and makes no mention of overcoming OR (and, indeed, does not have enough net successes to overcome the OR of a drone), I think that it's fairly clear that lack of such a reference is an oversight.

That being said, it is a true statement that RAW does not contain an exception for Indirect Combat spells overcoming OR.

[Wandering One]

Speaking of mundanes and attempting to intelligently avoid a mage eating them, the mage goggles seem particularly rediculously effective. Visual light periscope able to see around corners and a very small chance to see the fiberoptic channel, by the time they're done panicking an entire room could be stun-bolted in a few IP's. Even intelligent defense fails when you can't see what you're defending from.

I realize this is as similar as a mage with a lot of hits in improved invis (or just invis) in a room doing the same but without the -2.

Did I miss something regarding the mage-gogs, or are they truly this powerful? If so, I can't picture a mage without them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

To have a bound Focus at chargen you must spend BP equal to its Force. You're right: if this wasn't the case, Foci at chargen would be a ridiculously good deal, but that's not the case, so it's a little more balanced.

Sure but a rating 4 power focus ends up costing I think 24 BP instead of 100,00 and 32 karma. That is a great deal, but i'm not sure its unbalanced. The big issue with balance and resources is how worth it it is highly depend son the generosity of the GM. If you have a stingy GM, I recommend putting 50 in resources for virtually every character. If your GM is a bit freer with cash, you can buy whatever you want later. Now in this case I'm not really sure how 24 BP stacks up to 32 karma on its own, and depending on how stingy your GM is kind of determines how much better of a deal it is for 24BP compared to 32 karma and 100,000 nuyen.

Speaking of mundanes and attempting to intelligently avoid a mage eating them, the mage goggles seem particularly rediculously effective. Visual light periscope able to see around corners and a very small chance to see the fiberoptic channel, by the time they're done panicking an entire room could be stun-bolted in a few IP's. Even intelligent defense fails when you can't see what you're defending from.

I realize this is as similar as a mage with a lot of hits in improved invis (or just invis) in a room doing the same but without the -2.

Did I miss something regarding the mage-gogs, or are they truly this powerful? If so, I can't picture a mage without them.

It is fairly accurate there is a penalty for using mage goggles, and it is the same for sustaining a spell so unless your spirit or spell focus is holding that invis you are at -2 there as well. But you can do the same thing with a smart gun link and a gun/grenade launcher etc. Sure the gun is more obvious but you really aren't out of cover when doing it. I personally think its stupid so I wont do it in game and I hope to never see it. The mental image of people on both sides hiding fully behind cover with just there guns and fiber optic cables exposed just squelches any enjoyment i could get out of the game.

[Mordinvan]

- Kill the lights and pour in thermal smoke; the HTR team will use ultrasound or radar

Oddly the faq now says mages can cast spells using senses other then sight, so this one works both ways now.
(edit) or just have the mage set off a radar and ultrasound jammer and cast using astral perception, now EVERYONE is blind except for dual natured creatures.

- Background Count

If this is very common in your game, then you're over using it.

- You can, if you're extreme, hide bombs under the floor; if you've detected a mage, lure him over the bomb and detonate. With hard-wiring and through a secure, separate system of course. You can always claim that the magical terrorist justified extreme response.

Until word of this leaks out, and micro drones tap into the system and start setting it off around VIP's

Also, any criminal act committed with magic is automatically Premeditated under UCAS law, according to Street Magic. High-Force castings tend to leave impressive astral signatures; the time it takes to clean them up helps your HTR team arrive in time to catch them.

The time is either 1 round or one IP per force point. So ya, that can be pretty bad, and unless you've got the edges which mitigate this, it could really bite any mage in the ass rather easily.