More Skill Groups, Ideas for making SR4 a *little* easier on the Karma Options

[HentaiZonga]

So, one of the house rules I've been using has been to combine certain skills together into existing or new Skill Groups. Here's my current full list:

Combat Skill Groups
Awareness
Catch
Dodge
Perception

Close Combat
Blades
Clubs
Unarmed Combat

Firearms
Automatics
Heavy Weapons
Longarms
Pistols

Sensors
Electronic Warfare
Gunnery
Launch Weapons
Remote Operation

Trajectory Weapons
Archery
Grenade Launchers
Thrown Weapons

Physical Skill Groups
Athletics
Climbing
Escape Artist
Gymnastics
Running
Swimming

Outdoors
Navigation
Survival
Tracking

Stealth
Disguise
Infiltration
Palming
Shadowring

Technical Skill Groups
Biotech
Cybertechnology
First Aid
Medicine
Surgery

Computer
Data Search
Hardware
Software
Systems

Cracking
Cyber-combat
Encryption
Hacking

Crafting
Armorer
Artisan
Locksmithing
Watchmaking

Mechanic
Aeronautics
Auto Mechanics
Industrial Mechanics
Nautical Mechanics

Social Skill Groups
Influence
Etiquette
Leadership
Negotiation
Persuasion

Presentation
Instruction
Intimidation
Music
Performance

Vehicle Skill Groups
Pilot Aerospace
Pilot Deep Space Craft
Pilot Launch Craft
Pilot Semiballistic Craft
Pilot Suborbital Craft

Pilot Aircraft
Pilot Fixed-Wing Craft
Pilot Lighter-than-Air Craft
Pilot Rotary Wing Craft
Pilot Vectored Thrust Craft

Pilot Ground Vehicle
Ride Bike
Drive Wheeled Vehicle
Drive Tracked Vehicle

Pilot Walker
Control Anthroform
Control Biped
Control Crawler

Pilot Watercraft
Pilot Motorboat
Pilot Sailboat
Pilot Submarine

Magical Skill Groups
Conjuring
Banishing
Binding
Questing
Summoning

Occult
Arcana
Assensing
Astral Combat
Enchanting

Sorcery
Counterspelling
Ritual Sorcery
Spellcasting

Resonance Skill Groups
Threading
Jamming
Linking
Threading

Tasking
Compiling
Decompiling
Registering
Submersion

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Skill-Creep as house rule – exactly what Shadowrun needs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

So, you increased the skill count by what, 27?
And you are complaining it's to Karma intensive?

Fail.

[Ascalaphus]

Seriously, you added WAY too many skills. Abstraction is power; skills that do too little should be folded up with others so that all skills are equally useful. You seem to want precision and realism a little too much. But it's not useful to subdivide everything; it's better if a dot in any given stat is equally useful as any other dot, rather than reflecting an equal amount of training.

Any game system is a flawed reflection of reality; but that's actually good. We don't want to deal with the entirety of reality anyway; like in a movie, we prefer to focus on a theme. In Shadowrun that happens to be rather action-oriented. That means action-oriented skills are heavily represented. Other skills would take just as long to learn in the real world, but they're less important in Shadowrun, so they cost less (Professional Knowledges for example.)

It's also possible to continue to subdivide skills forever, or to regroup them into larger units forever. To create a good, balanced game system, all the units of skills should give about the same amount of utility for the same price.

In your system, it's really unattractive to play anything other than a street sam, because all the other niches need to buy a gazillion skills, while sams need only 2 groups; Combat Awareness and Firearms. The rest is redundant for killing. Meanwhile a normal rigger would have to buy Sensors, Mechanic, Pilot Groundcraft, Pilot (Aircraft/Walker/Watercraft, 1-2 of them), some Computer, some Cracking - just to be a normal rigger.

I mean, seriously, three different Pilot Walker skills? Why would anyone bother with that? You've tripled the cost of playing a rigger, which isn't all that easy under current prices. I get whined at by my players on why the normal Pilot skills aren't a skill group, and I'm minded to agree with them.

The only one I like is the Occult skill group, that does have some uses, much like the Mechanic skill group but for magicians.

EDIT: WTF? Watchmaking?!
EDIT2: The problem with the Occult skill group is that you can take Arcana while unAwakened, and Astral Combat and Assensing only if you can astrally perceive; while Enchanting only requires Magic I think.

[Muspellsheimr]

EDIT: WTF? Watchmaking?!

Yea, I was a little confused about that one as well.

[Ol' Scratch]

The idea behind the house rule is sound, it's the execution that's not very well done.

I totally get why someone would want to try to expand upon the skill groups. Skills are frighteningly expensive, at least in order to gain all of the ones a typical shadowrunner needs/should have (Athletics, Dodge, Etiquette, Negotiation, Perception, Stealth, etc.) in addition to any unique to their build. I also understand that HentaiZonga is trying to streamline the skills and skill groups so that they're all of a similar value; the fact that Pilot Ground Vehicles covers such a ridiculous array of different vehicles (the similarities between driving a bike, a car, and a tank are pretty minor at best), while Pistols covers only a handful of firearms is fairly ridiculous from a certain point of view.

I really do get all of that. The problem is that skill groups aren't that cheap, either, and they have some strict rules associated with them as well. So this isn't actually helping as much as it's making several character concepts more difficult to attain with the 400 Build Point system.

But as others have said, this isn't the way to go about resolving it. If anything, I'd go the opposite way and transform some of the skill groups into general skills instead, and just allow the specializations to cover the more specific subskills. Firearms (Pistols) or Athletics (Running), for instance. Then you could organize these individual skills in a way that keeps them roughly balanced to the other skills and keep them affordable. You just have to be careful about not creating uber skills. Firearms, for instance, shouldn't include Heavy Weapons or Gunnery as allowing a character to be equally good with a hold-out pistol as he is with a rocket launcher through the same basic firearms training is pretty silly.

Try going that route and see what you come up with. You might end up liking it a lot more.

Another option is to ignore how the core rules handle skill groups and redefine what that term means. This is something I've experimented with in the past. And what I mean by it is that I considered changing skill groups so that they were a collection of skills that certain professions might learn and develop, rather than trying to rationalize the old defaulting rules which the current rules are attempting to do. For example, one of the skill groups I created was for an undercover trid reporter that a player wanted to make. I, in my lack of creativity, simply called it the Reporter Skill Group and it included Con, Infiltration, Negotiation, and Shadowing. Another was the Gunslinger Skill Group which included Armorer, Dodge, Intimidation, and Pistols.

It's something to mull over if nothing else.

[Dakka Dakka]

EDIT: WTF? Watchmaking?!

Guess someone wanted to play Gabriel Gray (Sylar) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I had another WTF-Moment with Questing. Instead of using all sorts of different skills on a(n astral) quest you only need one skill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) Can I have the skill Shadowrunning?

[HentaiZonga]

If anything, I'd go the opposite way and transform some of the skill groups into general skills instead, and just allow the specializations to cover the more specific subskills. Firearms (Pistols) or Athletics (Running), for instance. Then you could organize these individual skills in a way that keeps them roughly balanced to the other skills and keep them affordable. You just have to be careful about not creating uber skills. Firearms, for instance, shouldn't include Heavy Weapons or Gunnery as allowing a character to be equally good with a hold-out pistol as he is with a rocket launcher through the same basic firearms training is pretty silly.

Try going that route and see what you come up with. You might end up liking it a lot more.

Well, going that route, it might be most expedient to simply take the above Skill tree, and make Skill Groups cost as much as a Skill does now (2x Karma / 1 BP), and individual Skills cost half that (1x Karma / 2 Skill levels per 1 BP)

[Muspellsheimr]

My problem with Skill Groups is that they are uneven, some groups consisting of 4 skills while others have 3, the rigidity of the groups, and that not all skills are represented in those groups. I tried & failed to find a solution to balance the skill groups in a way that makes sense (with or without fixing the second & third problems).

Thus, my solution to the issue was simply to remove skill groups, and it has worked quite well so far.

p.105-130 SKILLS Chapter
Remove all references to Skill Groups

p.111 Automatics
Remove Automatics

p.112 Heavy Weapons (Agility)
Remove the following from the description:
“and launch weapons”
Remove the following from Specializations:
“Grenade Launchers, Guided Missiles, Rocket Launchers”

p.112 COMBAT ACTIVE SKILLS
Add the following skill:
“Launch Weapons (Agility)
This skill governs the use of launch weapons and mortars.
Default: Yes
Specializations: Guided Missiles, Grenade Launchers, Mortars, Rocket Launchers

p.114 PHYSICAL ACTIVE SKILLS
Add the following skill:
“Athletics (Strength)
Athletics is the skill used to ascend obstacles, increase running & swimming distances, & determines how well you can pace yourself for extended physical activity.
Default: Yes
Specializations: Climbing, Running, Swimming.”

p.114 Climbing
Remove Climbing

p.114 Running
Remove Running

p.115 Swimming
Remove Swimming

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So, how does one fire machine guns, SMG's and assault rifles?

[Dakka Dakka]

Probably with the longarms skill.

[Fatum]

Probably with the longarms skill.

Isn't it the skill that raises your Reach?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Probably with the longarms skill.

That's what I'm assuming, but since he had made quite detailed "errata" I thought it begged the question.

[Draco18s]

not all skills are represented in those groups.

That was done on purpose. Some skills (like Dodge) are invaluable to all runners and they want you to pay full cost for it.

By adding Gymnastics to the Athletics group you've pushed that one up to five skills which no group ever had and your listing doesn't have either (max is four in any other group). Then add in the Flying skill that some special races get, that pushes it up to six. Now that group is 10 BP instead of 20 (or 24 BP) for 1 rank.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

By adding Gymnastics to the Athletics group […]

Uhm… Gymnastics is part of the RAW Athletics group – Escape Artist isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

Uhm… Gymnastics is part of the RAW Athletics group – Escape Artist isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Whoops. That's what I get for reading the thread, then replying later after reading a reply.

And being at work.

[Muspellsheimr]

So, how does one fire machine guns, SMG's and assault rifles?

Probably should have included this initially, as it's directly relevant to my skill alterations.

p.307 Machine Pistols
Change the first sentence to:
“Use the Pistols skill when firing a machine pistol”

p.307 Submachine Guns
Change the first sentence to:
“Use the Pistols skill when firing a submachine gun”

p.308 Assault Rifles
Change the first sentence to:
“Use the Longarms skill when firing an assault rifle”

p.310 Grenade and Missile Launchers
Change the first sentence to:
“Use the Launch Weapons skill when firing grenade and missile launchers.”

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting earlier. Some of the other skills and skill groups need a similar treatment, but Athletics and Firearms are the two big ones simply because they're the ones that come up the most.

[Dumori]

IIRC I did a huge redo of the fire arms group though heavy weapons get over powered a bit from this I kept it out of the group and it works quite well in my group I'll find the thread if i can.

Found
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...amp;hl=Firearms

[kjones]

I really want to have a character with points in the shadowrunning skill. It would really streamline gameplay - each session would come down to a shadowrunning extended test, with a threshold depending on the difficulty. Beat the threshold, you get money, fail and you die.

Much simpler for everyone involved.

[Dumori]

I mean I'd totally take aptitude with that skill. Edge based for the attribute? 16DP tops +2 for your spec such as extractions and such. You know what I like this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Robineng]

I really want to have a character with points in the shadowrunning skill. It would really streamline gameplay - each session would come down to a shadowrunning extended test, with a threshold depending on the difficulty. Beat the threshold, you get money, fail and you die.

Much simpler for everyone involved.

Nowhere near as fun though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Robineng]

please delete... double post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

This post has been edited by Robineng: Mar 30 2010, 11:39 PM

[Shinobi Killfist]

But as others have said, this isn't the way to go about resolving it. If anything, I'd go the opposite way and transform some of the skill groups into general skills instead, and just allow the specializations to cover the more specific subskills. Firearms (Pistols) or Athletics (Running), for instance. Then you could organize these individual skills in a way that keeps them roughly balanced to the other skills and keep them affordable. You just have to be careful about not creating uber skills. Firearms, for instance, shouldn't include Heavy Weapons or Gunnery as allowing a character to be equally good with a hold-out pistol as he is with a rocket launcher through the same basic firearms training is pretty silly.

That would be my preference. I think SR2 got the skills right or more right than other versions.(and turning the groups into skills would be close to a SR2 skill list) Sr3 always boggled me it was just like SR2's skill list except for weapons those were broke down into separate skills for some reason. SR4, conceptually I like skill groups, but they are so overpriced they don't really work.