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> Melee Attack as a complex action?
Kazuhiro
post Mar 30 2010, 11:09 PM
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What exactly is the justification for this? I understand that punching someone in the face requires more time and focus than pulling a trigger, but I don't understand how this makes sense from a balance perspective.
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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 30 2010, 11:13 PM
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The idea is that it's more than a single swing or attack, but an exchange of blows and counterblows. Hence the various dodge, parry, and counterattack options available. The end result is the cumulation of all of those exchanges.
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Summerstorm
post Mar 30 2010, 11:16 PM
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I think while pulling a trigger (still not very fast) is per muscle-spasm, a melee attack is not per punch thrown but per move. It can be a kick, a complex grabble, a "finishing move", a set up or other maneuvers. That makes them seem slower. Also yes, in the time you pull a trigger you cannot throw a punch one is a move over 1-2 cm, the other over half a meter.

EDIT: That will teach me to be this slow... yeah, what he said.
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Kazuhiro
post Mar 30 2010, 11:21 PM
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I *get* that, all you have to do with a gun is point and shoot which is a lot faster than trying to kick someone in the face, I'm just saying it gimps melee fighting somewhat.
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rumanchu
post Mar 30 2010, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Mar 30 2010, 04:21 PM) *
I *get* that, all you have to do with a gun is point and shoot which is a lot faster than trying to kick someone in the face, I'm just saying it gimps melee fighting somewhat.


Thus the old adage about not bringing a knife to a gun fight.
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Summerstorm
post Mar 30 2010, 11:25 PM
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Ah, not really. (In my opinion). People with guns get penalties in close quarters, have limited ammo, no radically awesome maneuvers. (And don't forget EVIL ki-powers or contact-spells). Also it is silent (if you manage an instant takedown and succeed at a stealth-roll).

Depending on the build and type of specialization of a melee fighter they dish out up to assault-cannon damage with extra-effects. And many people don't really have that much training in close-quarter. With a gun you just need to spray and pray. Having enough mooks fill the air with lead takes down everybody... but if that dude is in melee with one of yours? can't well shoot him that easy, right?
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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 30 2010, 11:28 PM
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What?

Melee combat itself isn't gimped at all. Everything you need to do is encased in that single complex action, and the myriad options you have available can be overwhelming. Tossing people around, disarming or breaking weapons, attacking multiple people at once, a finishing move attack, quick drawing, maneuvering people around the battlefield, etc. Compare that to your options when shooting someone. You get, what, a choice between shooting someone and suppressing an area, the latter of which takes a complex action, too. Melee wins by a landslide. Especially when you consider the huge diversity in weapons available. The sheer power of a monofilament whip is insane.

What's gimped is the effectiveness of melee combat in a world where everyone and their grandmother has an automatic at the ready. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" and all that. But that has little to nothing to do with melee using complex actions or melee combat itself. It has more to do with the fact that you get your ass shot up before you get close enough to do anything.
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Summerstorm
post Mar 30 2010, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (rumanchu @ Mar 31 2010, 01:24 AM) *
Thus the old adage about not bringing a knife to a gun fight.


Ah yes... in the open field: Of course not. But most fight in Shadowrun are in extreme near ranges. And depending on reaction and running speed (and stealth) it is VERY possible to just dodge once and initiate a close-quarter brawl which may shift to your specialization and leaving the foe with little choice. If they are no red samurai (which get fielded with Katanas (which they are trained in its use) and military armor) it is likely they will get their ass handed to them.
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Muspellsheimr
post Mar 30 2010, 11:39 PM
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Melee requires a Complex Action, as stated, because of the various options available with it, most notable being the Interception rules.

The problem is not that melee is a Complex Action, the problem is that melee is defended against with Attribute + Skill + (Skill), whereas ranged is defended against with Attribute + (Skill).



This is solved in my game (limited playtesting at this point, but so far so good) by adjusting the defense rules to the following (has the added benefit of making Dodge 1 or 2 actually useful):

Defender Unaware: No defense test possible
Defender Aware: Attribute
Active Defense (Bock, Dodge, or Parry): Attribute + Skill (takes a Free Action to declare; lasts until your next action [even if that action is consumed with an Interrupt] )
Full Defense (Block, Dodge, or Parry): Attribute + Skill (takes a Complex Action, may be declared as an Interrupt action; lasts until your next action [even if that action is consumed with an Interrupt] )

Active & Full Defense stack, for a total of Attribute + Skill + Skill.

Block uses the Unarmed Combat skill, & may be used to defend against melee attacks.
Dodge uses the Dodge skill, & may be used to defend against melee, ranged, or area-effect attacks.
Parry uses the Blades or Clubs skill, & requires the use of a Blade or Club weapon (as appropriate), & may be used to defend against melee attacks.


These rules are used for all combat, be it a fistfight or gunfight.
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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 30 2010, 11:40 PM
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Additionally, shooting someone isn't any faster than kicking them in the face. There's no Initiative penalty for using melee over ranged combat, which is the only place where the "speed" of the attack matters. A gunslinger just gets to shoot twice in most circumstances when his turn comes up, both of which are independent actions on their own. When your turn comes up, you have the option of spending two simple actions, too, but instead choose to do the crazy Kung Fu thing which eats up a complex action because, as previously mentioned, it's a huge, involved exchange of attacks, counterattacks, and secondary moves. Not just a quick aim and pull of the trigger.

Who's "faster" is determined solely by Initiative.
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Harbin
post Mar 30 2010, 11:47 PM
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Now I'm imagining an epic lightning quick exchange of moves that are too fast for the normal eye to see :[)

Thanks, it sounds like I'm supposed to think that way.
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rumanchu
post Mar 30 2010, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Mar 30 2010, 03:29 PM) *
Ah yes... in the open field: Of course not. But most fight in Shadowrun are in extreme near ranges. And depending on reaction and running speed (and stealth) it is VERY possible to just dodge once and initiate a close-quarter brawl which may shift to your specialization and leaving the foe with little choice. If they are no red samurai (which get fielded with Katanas (which they are trained in its use) and military armor) it is likely they will get their ass handed to them.


I was just being snarky. The players in my game do their best to make sure that I know exactly how non-gimped well-trained melee combatants are.
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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 30 2010, 11:58 PM
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Keep in mind that the Simple Action used to fire a gun isn't just pulling the trigger. It also includes the mental processes including choosing your target and deciding where to aim. The rules really don't support pulling the trigger blindly as quickly as you can, even with autofire. These are all deliberated, thought-out actions.

And yes, you're supposed to see melee as a rapid exchange of blows. Just like in any martial arts film ever produced by man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: Oops, wrong clip.
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Starmage21
post Mar 31 2010, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 30 2010, 06:58 PM) *
Keep in mind that the Simple Action used to fire a gun isn't just pulling the trigger. It also includes the mental processes including choosing your target and deciding where to aim. The rules really don't support pulling the trigger blindly as quickly as you can, even with autofire. These are all deliberated, thought-out actions.

And yes, you're supposed to see melee as a rapid exchange of blows. Just like in any martial arts film ever produced by man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: Oops, wrong clip.


I dont see chuck norris in that film...
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KnightIII
post Mar 31 2010, 01:00 AM
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I am surprised no one has brought up Bruce Lee's striking speed. (.05 seconds starting with his hand at his side) which makes it arguable that an accomplished martial artist can hit as fast as a person can pull a trigger. But before any does use this example, please be aware that such a hit must be followed by a multi second "whoooooaaaaa" and several head twists.
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kjones
post Mar 31 2010, 01:01 AM
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The other problem with melee attacks being a complex action is that drawing a melee weapon (or any weapon) is a simple action. So if you're holding a gun, and somebody charges you and gets all up in your face, it makes more sense for you to try to shoot them than to try to pull out your stun baton and whack them.

Or am I missing something?
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Kazuhiro
post Mar 31 2010, 01:03 AM
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Thanks for the responses. A quick question, what was that about attacking multiple people with a single melee attack?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 31 2010, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Mar 30 2010, 06:03 PM) *
Thanks for the responses. A quick question, what was that about attacking multiple people with a single melee attack?



Much like splitting your dice pool for multiple firearms attacks, you can do the same with a Melee Attacks... split your pool equal to the number of attacks that you take, and don't forget the penalty for switching targets...

Keep the Faith
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bmcoomes
post Mar 31 2010, 01:07 AM
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Cuz he was probably Directing it!!! Chuck Norris that is.

Man I laughed my butt off watching that.

Now this one is more of what I think of for Melee combat.
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Kazuhiro
post Mar 31 2010, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 30 2010, 08:05 PM) *
Much like splitting your dice pool for multiple firearms attacks, you can do the same with a Melee Attacks... split your pool equal to the number of attacks that you take, and don't forget the penalty for switching targets...

Keep the Faith
I don't think that counts as attacking multiple people. My character rolls 12 dice on a melee attack, which is pretty good, but I don't like the idea of attacking two people with a dice pool of 6 when they get to defend with Reaction+Skill.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 31 2010, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Mar 30 2010, 06:08 PM) *
I don't think that counts as attacking multiple people. My character rolls 12 dice on a melee attack, which is pretty good, but I don't like the idea of attacking two people with a dice pool of 6 when they get to defend with Reaction+Skill.



You split your base pool, and then add all modifiers to each attack, as normal... and yes, this makes multiple attacks against Skilled individuals a bad idea for the most part...

Against Mooks, it is not too bad...

Keep the Faith
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FriendoftheDork
post Mar 31 2010, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Mar 31 2010, 12:09 AM) *
What exactly is the justification for this? I understand that punching someone in the face requires more time and focus than pulling a trigger, but I don't understand how this makes sense from a balance perspective.


Balance? There's no lipstick. Erhh, Balance. Ranged Combat is supposed to be better in Shadowrun.

QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 31 2010, 02:01 AM) *
The other problem with melee attacks being a complex action is that drawing a melee weapon (or any weapon) is a simple action. So if you're holding a gun, and somebody charges you and gets all up in your face, it makes more sense for you to try to shoot them than to try to pull out your stun baton and whack them.

Or am I missing something?


Yeah that's a problem. There should be some way to include drawing a melee weapon in the same action you attack with. After all if the complex action is a series of attacks, feints blocks etc., then using half a second or so drawing the weapon shouldn't be so hard.

Of course there are martial arts maneuvers in Arsenal that lets you draw a blade or almost any weapon with a free action.
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Kazuhiro
post Mar 31 2010, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 30 2010, 08:11 PM) *
You split your base pool, and then add all modifiers to each attack, as normal... and yes, this makes multiple attacks against Skilled individuals a bad idea for the most part...

Against Mooks, it is not too bad...

Keep the Faith
Modifiers as in specialization and adept powers, or do those things simply increase your base pool?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 31 2010, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Mar 30 2010, 06:14 PM) *
Modifiers as in specialization and adept powers, or do those things simply increase your base pool?


Adept Power: Improved Ability adds Skill Levels (up to 3 with a 6 Skill), so it is a part of the Skill Base...
Also, Bioware: Reflex Recorders add Skill Levels, and are also part of the Skill Base...
Specialization adds Bonus Dice, so comes after the split, applied to all pools...
Some Martial Arts Abilities would add after the Split as well...

Keep the Faith
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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 31 2010, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 30 2010, 07:11 PM) *
Of course there are martial arts maneuvers in Arsenal that lets you draw a blade or almost any weapon with a free action.

There's an adept power as well that performs a similar function. House ruling the Quick Draw rules works (which is what the adept power essentially does), too.
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