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Androcomputus
post Mar 31 2010, 03:04 PM
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One of my players has replaced all his limbs with cyber versions along with his skull, and torso... To my knowledge all that remains is just a brain in a can along with his stomach... (Think Victor Can Carne with a robot)

I know that realistically bullets would have a hard time "killing him"... does anyone know how I should handle damage for this cyborg or what page this information would be on?
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D2F
post Mar 31 2010, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Mar 31 2010, 03:04 PM) *
One of my players has replaced all his limbs with cyber versions along with his skull, and torso... To my knowledge all that remains is just a brain in a can along with his stomach... (Think Victor Can Carne with a robot)

I know that realistically bullets would have a hard time "killing him"... does anyone know how I should handle damage for this cyborg or what page this information would be on?


He still retains all his inner organs. Neither the cyberskull nor the cybertorso replace them. They are mere casings to protect them. Their added resilience is symbolized by the added physical damage threshold (+6 in this case). If the cyberlimbs are armored, that adds additional resilience as well.

Your player still has a brain and all his other organs to fail, get damaged, poisoned, smashed, stabbed, cooked...

If he wanted to be a brain in a jar, he'd have to use the cyborg rules from augmentation, which are simply unavailable during character creation and next to impossible to get during gameplay unless you, the GM specifically allows it. And then he'd just be a jarhead in a drone.

To answer your question about rules and where to find them:

QUOTE (p.343 SR4A)
Cyberlimbs have other useful features. They also grant the user 1 extra damage box to her Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb she possesses.


QUOTE (p.343 SR4A)
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down).


QUOTE (p.344 SR4A)
Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.


Rules on Cyborgs: p.158-164 Augmentation

Sidebar listing the comparison between fully cyberlimb replacement and Cybrogs (Brain in a Jar): p.159 Augmentation
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Lansdren
post Mar 31 2010, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Mar 31 2010, 04:04 PM) *
One of my players has replaced all his limbs with cyber versions along with his skull, and torso... To my knowledge all that remains is just a brain in a can along with his stomach... (Think Victor Can Carne with a robot)

I know that realistically bullets would have a hard time "killing him"... does anyone know how I should handle damage for this cyborg or what page this information would be on?




Bullets can still put enough holes in the tinman to effectivly stop him although blood loss and shock are much less likely, granted a called shot to the head could ruin his day pretty quickly.


I think Augmentation has optional rules for cyberlimb damage which might be worth a look. I would quote page but Im' AFB at the moment


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Ol' Scratch
post Mar 31 2010, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Mar 31 2010, 09:04 AM) *
I know that realistically bullets would have a hard time "killing him"... does anyone know how I should handle damage for this cyborg or what page this information would be on?

The implants already cover this for you. He gets an extra box on his Physical Condition Monitor for every cyberlimb he possesses, including the torso and head, for a total of +6 boxes. Each limb can also have armor on it, significantly boosting his survivability. No extra rules are really needed, and both of those features are listed in the base description of cyberlimbs in the main rulebook.

Keep in mind that this is one of those builds that can get drastically out of hand, particularly with the armor. Assuming this is post-creation, he could potentially have up to 54 points of armor and max out his physical attributes up to his racial maximum (meaning Body 10 if he's a troll) by buying customized limbs. This armor doesn't take up any encumbrance and stacks fully with worn armor, and assuming he's a troll for this worst-case scenario, that means he can wear up to 20/20 encumbrance points of extra armor on top of that. And that's not considering any of the really out-there options.

So while it's unlikely he'll go that route (especially since, for me at least, the whole point of cyberlimbs is their capacity to hold cool toys), it's something to be wary of. It can easily unbalance a game.
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darthmord
post Mar 31 2010, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 31 2010, 11:30 AM) *
The implants already cover this for you. He gets an extra box on his Physical Condition Monitor for every cyberlimb he possesses, including the torso and head, for a total of +6 boxes. Each limb can also have armor on it, drastically boosting his survivability. No extra rules are really needed, and both of those features are listed in the base description of cyberlimbs in the main rulebook.

Keep in mind that this is one of those builds that can get drastically out of hand, particularly with the armor. Assuming this is post-creation, he could potentially have up to 54 points of armor and max out his physical attributes up to his racial maximum (meaning 10 if he's a troll) by buying customized limbs. This armor doesn't take up an encumbrance and stacks fully with worn armor, and assuming he's a troll for this worst-case scenario, that means he can wear up to 20/20 encumbrance points of extra armor on top of that. And that's not considering any of the really out-there options.

So while it's unlikely he'll go that route (especially since, for me at least, the whole point of cyberlimbs is their capacity to hold cool toys), it's something to be wary of. It can easily unbalance a game.


I like how SR allows (hell, encourages) people to build Robocop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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lunavoco
post Mar 31 2010, 05:25 PM
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And yet it lags behind the full-body prosthetics so perfectly illustrated in Ghost in the Shell.

The Cyborg option is better than anything we've ever had before, but it's not quite there yet.
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Faraday
post Mar 31 2010, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (lunavoco @ Mar 31 2010, 09:25 AM) *
And yet it lags behind the full-body prosthetics so perfectly illustrated in Ghost in the Shell.

The Cyborg option is better than anything we've ever had before, but it's not quite there yet.

Probably just a matter of time and technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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lunavoco
post Mar 31 2010, 05:49 PM
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That's what I said in SR3. When SR4 rolled in with it's wireless connections and cyborgs I could see the writing was on the wall.
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Kumo
post Mar 31 2010, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE
One of my players has replaced all his limbs with cyber versions along with his skull, and torso... To my knowledge all that remains is just a brain in a can along with his stomach... (Think Victor Can Carne with a robot)

If he didn't upgrade software in his cyber and keeps it online, some enemy hacker will be veeery happy...
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Professor Evil O...
post Apr 1 2010, 08:24 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 31 2010, 09:30 AM) *
Keep in mind that this is one of those builds that can get drastically out of hand, particularly with the armor. Assuming this is post-creation, he could potentially have up to 54 points of armor and max out his physical attributes up to his racial maximum (meaning Body 10 if he's a troll) by buying customized limbs. This armor doesn't take up any encumbrance and stacks fully with worn armor, and assuming he's a troll for this worst-case scenario, that means he can wear up to 20/20 encumbrance points of extra armor on top of that. And that's not considering any of the really out-there options.


The RAW actually handle this character pretty well up until the point where they start to add armor to all those limbs. It's kind of funny that a cyborg actually has to live with less armor. When they should really be (as vehicles with only one squishy organ) much harder to take down.
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Shrike30
post Apr 1 2010, 08:33 AM
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Full-body conversions (as I call the "4 limbs, torso and head, eyes and ears" jobs) are devastating if you start pushing physical stats and doing things like long-jumping across the street, chasing cars on the freeway, or throwing mailboxes at gangers who are chasing you. They're also kind of expensive to get shot up (bullets hurt meatbods more, but those heal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I'd leave the system as-is... the wound penalties, etc can reflect the damage being inflicted on the structure of his body, and "healing time" could simply reflect fiddling with settings and using repair kits, rather than sleeping off a blow to the head like the rest of us.
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The Jopp
post Apr 1 2010, 09:53 AM
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I would suggest the following:

All resistance tests against poisons and toxins should be made with Resistance Dicepool-Cyberlimbs. The reason for this is because a toxin dose is usually measured for a regular body - which means that a character who has removed 80% of their physical meat with metal have a higher risk of overdosing.

You could also apply this to alcohol and other milder poisons and toxins. High chans of getting drunk from one tiny glass of scotch.

Physical damage should be played as usual - but instead of healing tests, take half of the damage suffered and give him an estimated repair cost instead - say 100Y per box of damage suffered per cyberlimb.

A character with 8 boxes of damage and of those are "limb" damage would then cost 2K to repair.
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Catadmin
post Apr 1 2010, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 1 2010, 05:53 AM) *
Physical damage should be played as usual - but instead of healing tests, take half of the damage suffered and give him an estimated repair cost instead - say 100Y per box of damage suffered per cyberlimb.

A character with 8 boxes of damage and of those are "limb" damage would then cost 2K to repair.


Ow. That's a nasty (and effective) way of dealing with the issue. I know a few people who would just love that option (GMs). "Sorry, omae. You just don't have enough nuyen to fix yourself and your Doc Wagon contract doesn't quite cover everything. You're just going to have to lay here in the streets for a while and hope no scavengers come along..."


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Lansdren
post Apr 1 2010, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 1 2010, 10:53 AM) *
I would suggest the following:

All resistance tests against poisons and toxins should be made with Resistance Dicepool-Cyberlimbs. The reason for this is because a toxin dose is usually measured for a regular body - which means that a character who has removed 80% of their physical meat with metal have a higher risk of overdosing.

You could also apply this to alcohol and other milder poisons and toxins. High chans of getting drunk from one tiny glass of scotch.

Physical damage should be played as usual - but instead of healing tests, take half of the damage suffered and give him an estimated repair cost instead - say 100Y per box of damage suffered per cyberlimb.

A character with 8 boxes of damage and of those are "limb" damage would then cost 2K to repair.



Thats quite a slick way of doing it I like that alot.

Could be nasty if the Sam gets really battered on a couple of occasions but really is his cyber arm any less worth repairing then the Riggers drone
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AngelisStorm
post Apr 1 2010, 12:03 PM
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Though you might want to max the "implant" damage at the number of extra boxes the character gets.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 1 2010, 12:46 PM
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That reeks of punishing a player simply for going with cyberlimbs as opposed to some of the much better, more effective implants. Unless you want to start charging any character with implants outlandish repair bills (and coming up with a similar mechanic to punish those without any at all), it's really not a fair rule at all.
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Lansdren
post Apr 1 2010, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 1 2010, 01:46 PM) *
That reeks of punishing a player simply for going with cyberlimbs as opposed to some of the much better, more effective implants. Unless you want to start charging any character with implants outlandish repair bills (and coming up with a similar mechanic to punish those without any at all), it's really not a fair rule at all.



True punishing people might be going to far, abit of extra grittiness might go down well in some groups though
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Mongoose
post Apr 1 2010, 03:14 PM
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Not ALL toxins would have a magnified effect. First, injection vector toxins would be made of fail; unless you hit a fleshy bit, there's no bloodstream to inject into. Similar for airborn contact vector gasses / mists. Inhaled vector toxins wouldn't have an increased effect because with reduced biological mass, you get reduced metabolic needs and hence reduced breathing. Somebody with full limb replacement can probably get by with just half a lung. Injected toxins would be the bugaboo, but then again, assuming the character has a full sized liver still, its not working nearly as hard as it normally would, so it might balance out somewhat.

Look at it this way- are amputees more susceptible to toxins?

In terms of damage, if you are going to start requiring repairs for (some) boxes of physical damage, then track those boxes separately. They shouldn't contribute to the player passing out / dying, because having you cyber-limb shot off won't result in you bleeding to death.
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Teulisch
post Apr 1 2010, 03:39 PM
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if you want to damage cyberlimbs, you would need to bring back the stress rules from SR3. which means bringing back integrity enhancements and the protection values of the cyberskull and cybertorso. Its a lot of extra bookkeeping that you dont really need.

this guy sounds low essence already, does he even have room for the bioware to get extra IP? with alphaware hes already spent 5 essence of cyber just on the 6 limbs. never mind the additional essence cost of senseware and datajacks. a proper tinman really needs to have betaware in order to get enough toys to do it well (and we all know robocop was a delta-grade prototype)

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Medicineman
post Apr 1 2010, 05:46 PM
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a complete Alpha Suite for a Char with Biocompatibility to Cyberware = 40% off the Essence Cost
My Char "Cyb Ork" started like this ( & Synaptic Booster 1) and was left with 0,48 Essence (& Callous Disadvantage) IIRC
And 54 Points Armor ...Thats not realistic (possible maybe,but not realistic) ImO

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The Jopp
post Apr 1 2010, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Apr 1 2010, 04:14 PM) *
Not ALL toxins would have a magnified effect. First, injection vector toxins would be made of fail; unless you hit a fleshy bit


Sorry, forgot half of my own house rules.

Yes, to hit a fleshy bit would require a called shot with a modifier equal to Dicepool -Limbs to hit.

Attack Pool 10 VS 6 cyberlimbs equal pool of 4
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Mongoose
post Apr 1 2010, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 1 2010, 06:46 PM) *
a complete Alpha Suite for a Char with Biocompatibility to Cyberware = 40% off the Essence Cost


The reductions for cyber grades etc are multiplicative, not additive. An Alpha Suite costs 80% * 90% the normal cost, or 72%. Biocompatibility would reduce that to (72% * 90%) or 64.8%. Rather than 40% off, you get 35.2% off.

That's still enough to bring a full body replacement down to 4.05 essence, though. That leaves room for a good load of bioware, given its gonna cost half essence.
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Medicineman
post Apr 1 2010, 08:21 PM
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Thats not quite Right
Discounts add together,they aren't multiplied
20% Off (Alpha) and 10% (suit) and 10% (Biocomp.) are a total of 40% Discount
It's in the German Bodytech on Page 50 "Rules for Cyberware Suites"
Unfortunately its not in Augmentations(German Books are usually Errattaed)

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D2F
post Apr 1 2010, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 1 2010, 09:21 PM) *
Thats not quite Right
Discounts add together,they aren't multiplied
20% Off (Alpha) and 10% (suit) and 10% (Biocomp.) are a total of 40% Discount

HokaHey
Medicineman


That heavily depends on what rules you use. According to augmentation, they are multiplied, not added:

QUOTE (p.32 Augmentation)
After locating a source for your second hand cyberware, apply the Essence Cost, Availability, and Cost modifiers as noted on the table below to the appropriate implant.

The essence cost modifier is labeled as:
QUOTE (p.32 Augmentation (emphasis added))
Essence Cost Multiplier


Even the given excemple supports this:
QUOTE (p32. Augmentation)
Nicola is looking for some high-class muscle replacement for her character Clutterbone, but since she’s short on nuyen, she decides to defy the bad reputation of secondhand cyberware and tries to acquire a Rating 2 alphaware muscle replacement implant.
The base Essence cost of the implant would be 1.92 (the original 2 Essence cost for Rating 2 muscle replacement x 0.8 for alphaware grade x 1.2 for the second-hand state of the implant)


I am not aware of an errata. If you have an official errata, please provide me with the link. Thanks in advance.
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crash2029
post Apr 1 2010, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (darthmord @ Mar 31 2010, 12:42 PM) *
I like how SR allows (hell, encourages) people to build Robocop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


Now take cyberguy and get him a smartlinked Ruger Thunderbolt with custom look, extended clip, gas vent 2, advanced saftey, skinlink, and personalized grip.
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