When Alternate History Hits Close to Home Options

[Kazuhiro]

I'm just gonna come out and admit it; I'm racist against Native Hawaiians. Their census numbers tell an "oppressed minority" story; proportionally low income and education, which is a fancy way to say that a lot of them are poor. This rather prevents the decent folk from sympathizing with them when they put on T-shirts that say "Malama 'aina" (love for the land) and restrict development in the name of some horribly misguided pseudo-environmentalist ethic, or when they wear "Ku I Ka Pono, Justice for Hawaiians" shirts while riding the bus with the 14 kids they had because of the welfare benefits, and my personal favorite, the ones who hold demonstrations without permission from the police department and put up huge "KAU INOA" banners saying that white people are responsible for Hawaii's problems and that the American government are a bunch of modern-day imperialists.

Basically here we have a demographic who likes to blame their problems on the crimes of white men who have been dead for a hundred years. Or at least, they transfer these crimes onto people who could not possibly be to blame, such as my girlfriend, who spent her public school years being bullied because she was white.

Funnily enough, asians avoid being considered aliens to Hawaii to at least some extent, so it really is just racism against "haoles."

So, although it was fascinating to read an alternate timeline in which the ignorant masses get their way, I can't pretend it didn't get me at least a little upset. The book says the reason they never got secession is because native hawaiians are such a small minority, but the real reason is because Hawaiian secessionists are a fringe group and have nowhere near the money, education, or all-around intelligence it would take to get something like that done.

Yes, I did just read through the "Paradise Lost" booklet which is a Shadowrun campaign set in Hawaii 2054, how did you guess?

On reading back through what I wrote there, I feel it important to pull the "have many [group] friends" card and add the disclaimer that none of this distaste for Hawaiian protest groups affects judgements on a personal level, or so I'd like to think.

[Matsci]

HINT: If you look at the NAN uprising with anything resembling logic, they are stupid.

They used magical handwavium to drive the white people out.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's even more stupid because the "white people" never bothered to reclaim the territory once the newness of magic was over. Considering that the only weapon the Amerinds had was a blood ritual that killed their own magicians, it's not exactly something they could maintain indefinitely.

[kjones]

While I'm not sure that I can agree with your assessment of the Hawaiian socioeconomic situation, I must admit that giving Native Americans a big chunk of North America back in SR1 smacks of white guilt. There are ways they could have done it that made sense, but this isn't one of them.

[Nifft]

If I read the alternate history right, the main thing holding back recolonization has been lack of population pressure, due to plagues & the like.

Wait until it gets crowded, then you'll see some cyber-conquistadors.

[Kazuhiro]

While I'm not sure that I can agree with your assessment of the Hawaiian socioeconomic situation,

Hmm, what do you mean?

[knasser]

I don't know much about politics in Hawaii in game or in real life, but I basically took the NAN history in Shadowrun and without exactly changing anything, I tried to make it somewhat more plausible.

Magic is a dramatically powerful weapon when one side has it and the other doesn't. You get to astrally project into the other side's private meetings. You get to Mind Control people, assassinate people, cause "accidents" and do all sorts of things without any means of being traced. Just six decent magicians could wreak havoc on the USA if it had no magic of its own. Spirit appears in the President's bedroom? Easy. Assassinate every US general? Fairly easy - a few watchers keep track of them until your combat spirit is ready to strike. One Force 6 Fire Elemental could down an entire battallion of helicopter gunships. (or whatever collective unit they come in): Appear in cockpit, kill pilot, go astral. Six seconds later you do another one. Three minutes later those helicopters have all tumbled from the sky. And don't even get me started on the PR power of magic. Appear somewhere, give rousing speech (enhanced by Mob Mood if you like), when the police show up to arrest you, go invisible and levitate away. Basically, by the simple fact that the NAN cultists got a head start on magic by, what, a decade? They had immense offensive power against the US. As regards manpower, well it seems silly that they should have sufficient numbers of pure native americans.. But there had been war, plague, massive corporate and government corruption. I basically said that their culture, bolstered by their seeming ability to do miracles (a few magicians can cover a lot of ground), became an entire counter-movement. My NAN has a lot of none-native americans in it, but their loyalty was to the NAN, not the despotic US government. Then it all works.

K.

[Saint Sithney]

I'd appreciate if we didn't have another "lets complain about the Abos" thread active. Could we at least hold it off until someone comes out and says "I suddenly started/stopped being racist thanks to one of these threads," just so we can see that we're not all wasting our time?

[Sengir]

It's even more stupid because the "white people" never bothered to reclaim the territory once the newness of magic was over. Considering that the only weapon the Amerinds had was a blood ritual that killed their own magicians, it's not exactly something they could maintain indefinitely.

But how many people knew about that when the Denver Treaty was signed, or even know about it in 2070?

It's like Aztechnology, everybody who reads the books knows that they have several Kilohitlers of evilness, but for the vast majority of people in the story they are the guys who provide a large part of the world's foodstuffs and everyday supplies....sure, they have this weird "back to the old ways" thing going, but who doesn't these days?

[Kazuhiro]

Just so you know, Sengir, I'm going to use the word "Kilohitlers" at the next possible opportunity.

[Ol' Scratch]

But how many people knew about that when the Denver Treaty was signed, or even know about it in 2070?

So the Amerinds get to attack and terrorize the entire country in order to steal large swathes of land, but no one's allowed to do it to them because they scribbled some ink on a piece of paper?

[Tanegar]

So the Amerinds get to attack and terrorize the entire country in order to steal large swathes of land, but no one's allowed to do it to them because they scribbled some ink on a piece of paper?

Well, that's kind of what "treaty" means, you see.

[Sengir]

So the Amerinds get to attack and terrorize the entire country in order to steal large swathes of land, but no one's allowed to do it to them because they scribbled some ink on a piece of paper?

Nobody WANTS to do it to them because several decades after the war still only very few people know the details of the ritual, and quite a large percentage of those who know are Dragons and IEs who don't write books about it. And even fewer people (if any) know what would be possible in 2070, with significantly more magic research and higher mana levels.

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, that's kind of what "treaty" means, you see.

So? If they can break peace in order to commit terrorism on a national scale on a whim, why can't anyone else break a treaty on a whim? Same effective difference.

I'm not saying they should or would. I'm just saying it's odd that it rarely if ever comes up. The fact that the entire planet seemingly went through similar changes all in the span of a couple of decades is absolutely ludicrous, especially now that everyone is apparently happy with the status quo for... no reason whatsoever.

[knasser]

especially now that everyone is apparently happy with the status quo for... no reason whatsoever.

The biggest power-factions in Shadowrun 2072 are no longer national governments, but corporations. And the corporations are transnational. It doesn't make sense (usually) for one part of your kingdom (UCAS) to invade another part of your kingdom (Salish-Sidhe). There are exceptions and special cases of course, but broadly speaking, unless the corps would find profit in a war, they have the power to pull the plug on any government that wanted to.

[Tanegar]

What gives you the impression everyone is happy with the status quo? As Sengir pointed out, the Great Ghost Dance was basically the magical equivalent of a nuclear first strike, and nobody really knows what other tricks the NAN could pull out of their feathered hats if sufficiently pressed. It could very well be less a case of "don't want to" than "aren't sure they could pull it off."

[pbangarth]

The NAN portion of the Shadowrun historical sequence is certainly one of the more controversial ones, and gives rise to many arguments about its believability, even among people who are not admittedly prejudiced against native Americans, as you claim to be.

I'm just gonna come out and admit it; I'm racist against Native Hawaiians. Their census numbers tell an "oppressed minority" story; proportionally low income and education, which is a fancy way to say that a lot of them are poor. This rather prevents the decent folk from sympathizing with them when they put on T-shirts that say "Malama 'aina" (love for the land) and restrict development in the name of some horribly misguided pseudo-environmentalist ethic, or when they wear "Ku I Ka Pono, Justice for Hawaiians" shirts while riding the bus with the 14 kids they had because of the welfare benefits, and my personal favorite, the ones who hold demonstrations without permission from the police department and put up huge "KAU INOA" banners saying that white people are responsible for Hawaii's problems and that the American government are a bunch of modern-day imperialists.

Basically here we have a demographic who likes to blame their problems on the crimes of white men who have been dead for a hundred years. Or at least, they transfer these crimes onto people who could not possibly be to blame, such as my girlfriend, who spent her public school years being bullied because she was white.

There are members of my family who have difficulty seeing the point of view of aboriginal peoples because of the death of a family member at the hands of a few criminal aboriginal people. The argument that the actions of a few criminals (or thugs and bullies as may be true in your girlfriend's case) should not paint an entire people falls on deaf ears. I wonder whether by that logic we should now see all Christians as terrorists because of the actions of a few lunatics recently arrested by the FBI.

Hawaii is a part of the United States because of direct, imperialist action... action for which the U.S. government had issued its first (only?) apology. Of course, the apology didn't get in the way of eventual assimilation. And it is this assimilation, or the failure thereof, which is the source of both the troubles of the natives who don't want any part of the assimilating culture (yet use its mechanisms against it whenever they can... wouldn't you?) and the non-natives who can't understand why the natives don't smarten up and work harder, because it must be their fault they are poor. It's OK to blame them for poverty passed down through the generations, but not OK to be blamed for privilege passed down from the conquerors.

On reading back through what I wrote there, I feel it important to pull the "have many [group] friends" card and add the disclaimer that none of this distaste for Hawaiian protest groups affects judgements on a personal level, or so I'd like to think.

It's hard to see how your first paragraph doesn't contradict this one.

In hopes that this thread doesn't flame out, back to the NAN. Native americans finally got an advantage and used it. Why doesn't the UCAS now invade back? 1) Because they can't do it, 2) because there isn't enough profit in it 3) because the corporations don't want them to.

[knasser]

What gives you the impression everyone is happy with the status quo? As Sengir pointed out, the Great Ghost Dance was basically the magical equivalent of a nuclear first strike, and nobody really knows what other tricks the NAN could pull out of their feathered hats if sufficiently pressed. It could very well be less a case of "don't want to" than "aren't sure they could pull it off."

Another good point is that whilst the USA today has leapt into lots of wars (though they don't call them that), they are willing to do so because the leaders aren't personally threatened. George Bush wasn't particularly worried that the Iraqi army would get a shot at him. Fighting a very capable and magically potent group sharing multiple borders with you, sharing a lot of culture and personal relations with your country (family in both nations, massive trade, tourism) and furthermore known for the knack of asymetrical warfare... Any president signing a declaration of war against one of the NAN nations would have to be thinking: any second now, me or my family are going to be attacked.

I can't see as many of the leading politicians being as willing to put their own lives on the line as they are willing to put the country's soldiers' lives in danger.

K.

[fistandantilus4....]

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

I'm just gonna come out and admit it; I'm racist against Native Hawaiians. Their census numbers tell an "oppressed minority" story; proportionally low income and education, which is a fancy way to say that a lot of them are poor. This rather prevents the decent folk from sympathizing with them when they put on T-shirts that say "Malama 'aina" (love for the land) and restrict development in the name of some horribly misguided pseudo-environmentalist ethic, or when they wear "Ku I Ka Pono, Justice for Hawaiians" shirts while riding the bus with the 14 kids they had because of the welfare benefits, and my personal favorite,

It boggles the mind that you would really think it appropriate to open a thread like that. I'm going to debate the merits of this thread as a whole and whether or not to simply lock it outright. In the meantime, read over the Terms of Service again before I get back to you.

[Saint Sithney]

Well, that's kind of what "treaty" means, you see.

Oh man! You did not just say "treaty" with regards to the US government's dealings with the Natives.

Hilarious!


Real quick, go to a reservation and ask an AmInd what "treaty" means to him.
You are in for a ~*treat*~

[Daylen]

It boggles the mind that you would really think it appropriate to open a thread like that. I'm going to debate the merits of this thread as a whole and whether or not to simply lock it outright. In the meantime, read over the Terms of Service again before I get back to you.

I'm surprised you're the first to say anything about it. I've been called a racist here before and been attacked with text for saying something that was thought to be in game racism. very indirect. Now I wonder why none of those parties have said a thing here...

[fistandantilus4....]

I do as well, as this definitely is not referenced "in game", at least for the OP.

[Tanegar]

Oh man! You did not just say "treaty" with regards to the US government's dealings with the Natives.

Hilarious!


Real quick, go to a reservation and ask an AmInd what "treaty" means to him.
You are in for a ~*treat*~

I'm well aware of the disgraceful treatment American Indians have received (and continue to receive) from the U.S. government, thank you. The fact that politicians were and are corrupt little bastards doesn't change the definition of the word. TBH, I got a nice little chuckle out of the Great Ghost Dance and the creation of the NAN.

[Hagga]

I'd appreciate if we didn't have another "lets complain about the Abos" thread active. Could we at least hold it off until someone comes out and says "I suddenly started/stopped being racist thanks to one of these threads," just so we can see that we're not all wasting our time?

Why do they call aboriginals boongs? Because that's the noise they make when you hit them with the bullbar!

That said, I have many aboriginal friends and allow them to use my bathroom so I am very much not racist, fellow politically correct Australian. Shall we indulge in some Australian culture, perhaps, and go to greet some friendly Muslim folk in a large mob?

I apologise, this "i'm not racist BUT all of X are scum" stuff irritates me. Either come right out and say it or don't, but don't toss in qualifiers. You dislike an ethnic population segment or not. (I also just started being racist against native hawaiians because of this thread.)

[Daylen]

Why do they call aboriginals boongs? Because that's the noise they make when you hit them with the bullbar!

That said, I have many aboriginal friends and allow them to use my bathroom so I am very much not racist, fellow politically correct Australian. Shall we indulge in some Australian culture, perhaps, and go to greet some friendly Muslim folk in a large mob?

I apologise, this "i'm not racist BUT all of X are scum" stuff irritates me. Either come right out and say it or don't, but don't toss in qualifiers. You dislike an ethnic population segment or not. (I also just started being racist against native hawaiians because of this thread.)

not often I see someone admit to being a racist. Makes me start to wonder if you know exactly what racist means.

so you are "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others"?

actually that definition is a little new to me, but its what Princeton and a few others claim on the definition...