Wards, What are they good for? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I think there are some misconceptions about wards floating around. Considering that wards are often the most basic defense of corporations against magic, I've decided to start a discussion about just what shape wards take and what effect they have on the defense of a corporate instillation.

Now, the most basic misconception about wards I've seen is that they are capable of making barriers across empty space. This is blatantly untrue, a ward has to be anchored on a physical object, such as a wall, door, or window. The idea that a dual-natured being has to seriously worry about being forced through a ward while going up an elevator shaft is ridiculous. Unless a corporation has prepared a sustained Mana Barrier spell in their elevator shafts, all of their elevator shafts requiring a huge investment of time, money, karma (for sustaining foci) or concentration (for sustained spells), a dual-natured being has nothing to worry about from casual Mana Barriers in their daily life.

Another misconception I've seen is that Astral Forms have the ability to manipulate their forms, gaining the ability to slip under doors or through the cracks of windows, by-passing wards. I have seen nothing to indicate this. An astralling projecting magician should take up the same volume on the astral plane as he does on the physical plane, having the same restrictions about squeezing through a mesh screen as any normal person if that screen has been warded.

Wards also don't simply act as a wall around their center. Wards affect an area, affecting all objects that are within the warded area at the time of its creation. Because the ward's focal point cannot be moved in relation to a ward, obects like vases, desks, cubicle walls, and other objects that move frequently from their positions cannot be warded. Windows and doors, which don't move from their position but move in general, may be able to be warded, but I'd like the community's opinion on that point. Everything else in a warded building, walls, floors, ceilings, and sealed windows all become astral barriers and prevent astral movement, meaning that a spirit that manages to penetrate the first wall of a ward still doesn't have freedom of movement throughout the building.

The primary purpose of a ward is to stop astral beings from having free reign over a building, as well as prevent divinations and other detection spells. Besides this, they do not pose any danger to anything and are wholly defensive in nature.

I don't know whether this is all neccesarily the way wards function, this is the way I interpet them. If anyone has a different idea about wards then please, discuss them here.

[Keats]

I thought you could use symbols or rocks to make a ward. Like drawing a circle and creating a ward around it. Did I misunderstand page 194?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I thought you could use symbols or rocks to make a ward. Like drawing a circle and creating a ward around it. Did I misunderstand page 194?

I think your talking about the ward's focal point, which can be a symbol or object. Wards can be anchored on rock too, or really anything that doesn't move long enough to be warded.

[Ol' Scratch]

I think you're the one with the misconceptions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

First, wards do not have to conform to the shape of their anchor or the area in which they are placed. Street Magic even goes on to tell you all the myriad different shapes you can give your ward, including domes, cubes, and globes. Street Magic goes even further to tell you that complex shapes simply aren't possible; trying to match the walls of a room with multiple jagged edges and strange corners simply won't work. The restriction is that the foundation of the ward has to be on a physical object; you can't create a ward that floats in midair in open space. It has to be tied to something physical. Which is pretty much the only limitation on where one can be placed. But if you place some stones in a circle and a major anchor in the center, you can create a ward that surrounds the area up to the listed limits. The stones are just acting as a perimeter at best. Magic lodges are a shining example of this type of a ward/mana barrier. Wards can be placed in rooms, in vans, inside elevator shafts, or even around a magic circle in the middle of the desert. And the creating magician has full control over the shape and size of that ward regardless of where it's being placed, within the given limitations; it's just tied to that place. Walls, stones, statues, trideo sets, and anything else that casts an astral shadow can be an anchor.

Second, you can't ward just a door or a threshold despite your claims to the contrary (then apparently partial retraction later on in the same post). Wards are three-dimensional constructs and have minimum requirements; namely, no less than one meter away from the anchor in all directions. A door or window can be included in a ward, but you can't ward just the door or window. It would be utterly pointless anyway; any astral entity could just whoosh right around it.

Third, there are offensive wards. Charged and Trap Wards being the two most notable examples.

Fourth, you most certainly can be forced through a ward or other mana barrier. The last paragraph of "Passing Through Barriers" goes into detail about it, including the repercussions thereof. Dual natured items and individuals are the ones most at risk to this.

Finally, your post is full of contradictions. You say one thing, then turn around and say exactly the opposite a moment later. Elevator shafts make just as good an anchor and perimeter for a ward as anything else, yet you seem to completely disagree with that... only to say that they affect an area and not the anchor and focal points a couple of paragraphs later. That said, you probably shouldn't go around telling people that they're getting it wrong when you can't even agree with yourself in the span of a single post.

[Ol' Scratch]

I thought you could use symbols or rocks to make a ward. Like drawing a circle and creating a ward around it. Did I misunderstand page 194?

No, you have it right. Patrick doesn't.

[Muspellsheimr]

Dr. Funkenstein is correct on this one.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I mostly made this post to try and clarify what I was reading about wards. I haven't seen the section in Street Magic so I'll go look into it. My point about elevator shafts wasn't that the physical shaft couldn't be used as a ward, as in the metal shaft of the elevator, but that a ward couldn't be placed in thin air inside the elevator shaft, so that a dual-natured being would be forced through it when riding the elevator up. Perhaps I was unclear originally when I talked about wards preventing astral movement. I know spirits and astral forms can force their way through barriers, wards make it so that they have to, and will most likely alert the warding magician if they try. The point of a ward is to prevent astral forms from just being able to move through walls inside a facility. Also, thank you for the clarification about portals, I was unsure on that point.

Edit: I see what you were talking about when you mentioned passing through wards. It seems like a lot of effort and you need a metamagic to do it, but I suppose it's worth the risk to get unlimited, unnoticed access through a ward.

[Dakka Dakka]

The ward in the elevator shaft does work. You place the ward on one of the shaft's walls and designate a cube corresponding to width and length of the shaft. No the elevator car can freely move through the ward and does not disturb the anchor but anyone standing in the car will be forced through the ward. This results in either an unconcious [edit]assensing[/edit] intruder or an alerted wagemage. WinWin.

[Synner]

The good Dr. is correct, as is Dakka Dakka.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The ward in the elevator shaft does work. You place the ward on one of the shaft's walls and designate a cube corresponding to width and length of the shaft. No the elevator car can freely move through the ward and does not disturb the anchor but anyone standing in the car will be forced through the ward. This results in either an unconcious intruder or an alerted wagemage. WinWin.

Note that non-magical individuals are not "forced" through the ward, nor do they alert the casting mage... only magical auras will interact with the ward...

Just wanted to point that out...

Keep the Faith (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Da9iel]

War[ds], huh, yeah
What [are they] good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War[ds], huh, yeah
What [are they] good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[toturi]

Note that non-magical individuals are not "forced" through the ward, nor do they alert the casting mage... only magical auras will interact with the ward...

Just wanted to point that out...

Keep the Faith (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

So what would happen when a non-dual natured/astrally perceiving adept walks through a ward?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So what would happen when a non-dual natured/astrally perceiving adept walks through a ward?

Adepts that are Astrally Perceiving become Dual Natured for as long as they astrally perceive... they would have to contest the ward to passs through it... either they win and do not go unconscious, or they lose and are unconscious...

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Keep the Faith

[toturi]

Adepts that are Astrally Perceiving become Dual Natured for as long as they astrally perceive... they would have to contest the ward to passs through it... either they win and do not go unconscious, or they lose and are unconscious...

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Keep the Faith

Note that non-magical individuals are not "forced" through the ward, nor do they alert the casting mage... only magical auras will interact with the ward...

So what would happen when a non-dual natured/astrally perceiving adept walks through a ward?

Yes, but what if they aren't astrally perceiving? He still has a magical aura. How does a strictly physical magical aura interact with the ward? I already know how an astral form interacts with a ward. Since you claim that magical auras interact with wards, then I would like to know how.

[Ol' Scratch]

The adept power/spell effect/focus/etc. are all disrupted. Auras aren't affected; astral forms and magical effects are.

[FriendoftheDork]

Another good use of wards is to place it to protect inhabitants against spells. Suddenly have the lobby security guards get 6 dice extra to resist spells can really make a difference. Or at least give them a chance.

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, yeah, that's one of their many basic uses. But it's not like you can just throw a ward up on a whim. It takes a few hours.

[FriendoftheDork]

Well, yeah, that's one of their many basic uses. But it's not like you can just throw a ward up on a whim. It takes a few hours.

Wasn't this thread about how useful wards are to corporation? A few hours a week or whatnot is probably a good investment to be able to say "we have good magic security." And it might even help if a Shadowrunner team without proper legwork attempts a break in.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's definitely standard procedures. It's only 600 nuyen for a rating 6 ward that lasts a few weeks. Easily one of the cheapest options. And any corporation that has a place they really need warded can afford to have those wards made permanent, too. Heck, I had a security mage as a character once who did that sort of thing as his Day Job (the fact that he could then bypass any of his own wards was a nice side benefit and actually came up once).

[Valashar]

As to the question of someone who is not astrally perceiving, has no active spells, no active foci on them, etc. Then a ward has no effect on them. Simply being Awakened on the physical plane doesn't force you to interact with an astral ward. You pass through it without risk of disruption. Now if the ward itself is dual-natured (such as the ward created when a Lodge is attuned), I'm fuzzy on that.

[toturi]

The adept power/spell effect/focus/etc. are all disrupted. Auras aren't affected; astral forms and magical effects are.

Adept powers and many always-on critter powers are innate and so are unaffected by a barrier,...

An adept with active Astral Perception would be disrupted and knocked unconscious if they are forced through a ward like any other astral form, but otherwise, I do not think that adept powers are disrupted.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's outright bizarre. Especially since "dual-natured" is an always-on critter power...

[toturi]

That's outright bizarre. Especially since "dual-natured" is an always-on critter power...

Then the critter would be knocked unconscious if it is disrupted. But I suppose an unconscious dual-critter would still be dual natured even if forced through a ward, since it doesn't lose its dual nature.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, but it also includes things like Mystic Armor (which functions on the astral as much as the physical) and Living Focus (which turns you into a focus). I mean, why would a regular focus get disrupted, but not an adept functioning as one? It's kinda goofy. There's plenty of critter powers like that, too. Hell, Astral Form and Materialization are always-on critter powers for spirits, yet they're clearly affected by mana barriers.

A very odd rule. I can't even think of a solid justification it...

[Muspellsheimr]

An adept with Living Focus that is actively sustaining a spell will have the spell disrupted, causing the sustianing to effectively cease.

Mystic Armor does grant an Astral Armor rating, but it does not generate an astral form around the adept, as the spell would. None of the adepts abilities generate an astral form to be disrupted, unless specifically stated otherwise (such as astrally perceiving making you dual natured, or living focus allowing you to sustain a spell, the spell having an astral form).