The Dwarf Affect Options

[Stahlseele]

I Allways play Trolls.
I would LOVE to play Dwarves.
But my buddies are ALL complete jokesters <.<
There is no short joke, no little gag, no small play on words that's not used even a tiny bit.
See? See how fast that happens? See how easy it is? There'S 4 of them just in that single line!
And now imagine that over 4 or moure HOURS!
Nobody makes fun of the Troll. Even if he is dumb and uncharismatic, he can pick you up and do horrible things to you.

[fistandantilus4....]

I think the thing is that they just get over looked.


Lets Stand up for our Dwarven bretheren and give them the respect that they deserve!

You're quite right. My bad. I just overlook that issue

They do get underplayed in general

*Snickers with amusement at subtle dwarven prejudice at work*

[Ol' Scratch]

I Allways play Trolls.
I would LOVE to play Dwarves.
But my buddies are ALL complete jokesters <.<
There is no short joke, no little gag, no small play on words that's not used even a tiny bit.
See? See how fast that happens? See how easy it is? There'S 4 of them just in that single line!
And now imagine that over 4 or moure HOURS!
Nobody makes fun of the Troll. Even if he is dumb and uncharismatic, he can pick you up and do horrible things to you.

I, for one, would be wary of picking on anyone who has a set of teeth at the same level as my crotch. Especially anyone who has a Napoleon Syndrome to boot.

[Daylen]

I don't play elves because of too many years of playing with my "elven supremacist" Dad.

meh!? that gave me too many conflicting assumptions, so whatcha talken bout?

[pbangarth]

+5. Humans get a free point of Edge.

Watch the punctuation, big guy. "+15, better than humans", not "+15 better than humans."

[D2F]

Well, in a world in which magic plays a significant role, I think the bonuses dwarfs get should be seen as more important. Most direct damage and manipulation spells affect either WIL or BOD. Dwarfs get bonuses in both. And in the plus/minus calculation above, dwarfs come in at +15, better than humans.

That's true, but it's still less than an Ork or Troll.

[Ol' Scratch]

Watch the punctuation, big guy. "+15, better than humans", not "+15 better than humans."

Dwarves are still just a +5 versus the baseline. Since, you know, Humans are the baseline. They're not "+10," they're 0.

[D2F]

Dwarves are still just a +5 versus the baseline. Since, you know, Humans are the baseline. They're not "+10," they're 0.

He is talking about a net BP gain. He is not talking about baseline comparison. Humans are a net +10BP gain. Why? They get an extra edge point.

[Ol' Scratch]

<sighs> If the 0 BP option gives you the equivalence of +10 BP, then it's not the equivalence of +10 BP because it is 0 BP. Humans are the baseline. If you didn't spend the 25 BP to play a Dwarf (40 BP - 25 BP = 15 BP), you'd have a Human (10 BP - 0 BP = 10 BP), for a 5 BP difference. You wouldn't have a character without a race.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Because you don't play with number-crunchers.

Elves have the advantage of PR. They're the uber-characters in LotR. They were fantastic in D&D. Humans have the advantage of being... us... more cyberpunk, and much cheaper.

Dwarves have the worst PR. They're like people, but stumpier, uglier and smell worse. Who wants to play that? But they have the best ROI. In groups of number-crunchers, dwarves are very common. (For SR3. Not sure about SR4. Probably never worth it in SR1-2, because they're priority A.)

I think the number crunchers fail a bit on this though. Elves have the best stat bonuses. Yes they are Stat neutral they cost 30 points and get 30 point sin stats, but this also effects the maximums. Orks may have the best stat return but a chunk of it is in strength which is virtually worthless even for people focused on hand to hand damage, the other is body. While Body is a good stat I think both charisma and agility are more important overall. Yes I've seen some characters who miraculously don't have any need for charisma and have enough agillity, but agility and charisma cover what I consider all the core shadowrunning skills. (things like con, gymnastics, palming etc.) While +1 die is less than the +3 dice from body and whatever extra that means for more armor you can wear, the +1 in agility skills and +2 in charisma skills happens almost in every action you take which hopefully is a lot more often than the times you are shot.

For pure I got the most points in my character yes orks win, but I think it ignores where you can grow and the importance of the attributes. Still elves cost more, which is a long way to say I think even from a number crunching perspective I think most races are roughly balanced and I don't give the edge to dwarves and orks. Now Trolls I kind of think got the short end of the stick on this one, if close combat had been a strength based skill at least they could play to there stereotype, as is they are worse at it than a minmaxed elf.

[Kumo]

I have one new player who really likes to play dwarf.

About (in)famous dwarves, I remember Greerson from "Never deal with the dragon". The scene when Kham's orks nearly pissed their pants because of just one dwarf's enter... Heh. That's some rep.

[D2F]

<sighs> If the 0 BP option gives you the equivalence of +10 BP, then it's not the equivalence of +10 BP because it is 0 BP. Humans are the baseline. If you didn't spend the 25 BP to play a Dwarf (40 BP - 25 BP = 15 BP), you'd have a Human (10 BP - 0 BP = 10 BP), for a 5 BP difference. You wouldn't have a character without a race.

I said "net gain". And yes, starting with an attribute at 2 is a net gain as opposed to 1. The base of ALL attributes, INCLUDING edge is 1. That is the attribute baseline during character generation prior to step 1, the point where you still have all your 400BP.
If, during step 1 you choose "human", you GAIN an edge point at no cost. You just raised your edge from 1 to 2 without paing a single Build Point (a +10 BP net gain) by virtue of chosing "human" as your metatype. That is a deliberate choice, not a default availability.

*edited to accomodate for temper*

[fistandantilus4....]

This is where I point out a big difference between a condescending tone and an out right personal attack.

We'll take a moment and get back to the both of you.

[D2F]

I think the number crunchers fail a bit on this though. Elves have the best stat bonuses. Yes they are Stat neutral they cost 30 points and get 30 point sin stats, but this also effects the maximums. Orks may have the best stat return but a chunk of it is in strength which is virtually worthless even for people focused on hand to hand damage, the other is body. While Body is a good stat I think both charisma and agility are more important overall. Yes I've seen some characters who miraculously don't have any need for charisma and have enough agillity, but agility and charisma cover what I consider all the core shadowrunning skills. (things like con, gymnastics, palming etc.) While +1 die is less than the +3 dice from body and whatever extra that means for more armor you can wear, the +1 in agility skills and +2 in charisma skills happens almost in every action you take which hopefully is a lot more often than the times you are shot.

For pure I got the most points in my character yes orks win, but I think it ignores where you can grow and the importance of the attributes. Still elves cost more, which is a long way to say I think even from a number crunching perspective I think most races are roughly balanced and I don't give the edge to dwarves and orks. Now Trolls I kind of think got the short end of the stick on this one, if close combat had been a strength based skill at least they could play to there stereotype, as is they are worse at it than a minmaxed elf.

Whether charisma is important to your character depends on you, your group and your role. If your group already has a face, charisma is dump stat. Can't handle negotiations well? Ask your buddy. Having trouble to intimidate people? Ask your buddy. The list goes on.
If you're a combat role, charisma will hardly matter. Strength and body will (for recoil and damage compensation abilities).
If you're a mage, charisma is a lot more important than for your streetsam. Same holds true for a technomancer.

Not every metatype is equally suited for the various tasks and a solid group is usually made up of specialists, not jacks-of.all-trades. The question in regards to dwarves is: what are they best suited for? Mage? You could argue whether charisma or willpower is more important on this one, but overall, the elf will have the better drain resistance pool. Rigger/hacker/technomancer? Here we actually have Dwarves as the leading candidate. But we are only talking about a 1 point benefit (still: dwarves would be the best choice here).
Then there is combat. Orks and trolls simply beat the dwarf here. More body means more armor, means tougher. More strength means less recoil. And especially Orks don't have any major handicaps in the metal stat department (from a combat perspective).

I just don't see many cases where the dwarf wins the race (other than Rigger/Hacker/Technomancer) when it comes to pure numbers crunching. Especialy when you also consider the increased gear cost. But I am biased, since I don't like dwarves, so my opinion may very well be flawed here.

[D2F]

This is where I point out a big difference between a condescending tone and an out right personal attack.

We'll take a moment and get back to the both of you.

Sorry, he ruffled my feathers.

[Lady Door]

Sorry, he ruffled my feathers.

Yeah, he does that.

[Ascalaphus]

For riggers dwarves are... acceptable. The slightly lower cap on Reaction is a shame. But for hackers/technomancers they're pretty nice.

I think the aesthetic aspect factors a lot into choosing dwarves and trolls. It's just such an obvious race, so hard to blend in and get the normal treatment.

Hmm, I'm thinking about a dwarf B&E specialist, or perhaps hitman.. being small should have some advantages in infiltration. And it's at least not such a cliche as a dwarf technician. Hmm, maybe a dwarf bioadept.

[Ol' Scratch]

I said "net gain".

Exactly. The net gain is only 5 BP because humans -- the default race, which you're playing if you don't spend any BPs at all to be a dwarf -- get that +1 to Edge. "Net gain" means accounting for all of the variables, not just the ones you want to apply and ignoring the rest.

If, during step 1 you choose "human", you GAIN an edge point at no cost. You just raised your edge from 1 to 2 without paing a single Build Point (a +10 BP net gain) by virtue of chosing "human" as your metatype. That is a deliberate choice, not a default availability.

Incorrect. Human is the default. There isn't a "no race" option. If you're not spending BP for a race, you're a human. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. They're the baseline to which all the other races are compared and the default race of the game.

[D2F]

Exactly. The net gain is only 5 BP because humans -- the default race, which you're playing if you don't spend any BPs at all to be a dwarf -- get that +1 to Edge. "Net gain" means accounting for all of the variables, not just the ones you want to apply and ignoring the rest.

And this is where you're just plain wrong. The base value of all attributes is 1. No race gets a reduction, only bonuses. Base Edge is 1. Hence, Humans have a net gain of +10 BP.

Incorrect. Human is the default. There isn't a "no race" option. If you're not spending BP for a race, you're a human.

Wrong. If you spend no build points for race, you are still at step 1. You HAVE to purchase a metatype. Humans just happen to cost 0BP.

Why am I even arguing with you?

[Glyph]

Stat-wise, dwarves are not so hot. They don't come out ahead on net stats as much as orks do (+20 for orks vs. +5 for dwarves), and their penalties are more severe. An ork's mental Attribute caps might not even come up, depending on the concept. But a dwarf has a cap on Reaction, a lower running speed, and needs to use specially modified gear.

Dwarves are fun if you have a specific notion for a character - a gnome who impersonates a street kid, a face with a loud tie and a Napoleon complex, etc. But I would almost never pick dwarf unless I had a concept specifically calling for one.

[The Dragon Girl]

Personally I really like dwarves and have been playing with a couple of concepts for them- and we've had one gnomish technomancer in the group so far.

Books: theres that dwarven assassin in the Secrets of Power trilogy

[Ol' Scratch]

And this is where you're just plain wrong. The base value of all attributes is 1. No race gets a reduction, only bonuses. Base Edge is 1. Hence, Humans have a net gain of +10 BP.

Wrong. If you spend no build points for race, you are still at step 1. You HAVE to purchase a metatype. Humans just happen to cost 0BP.

<shrugs> You're still not correct. Humans are the baseline, and that baseline includes a +1 bonus. You inability to process that is of no concern to me, so think whatever you want to think. It won't make it any more right.

[Mongoose]

Lets not forget that dwarves have lower movement rates than any other race. That's not reflected in these build point comparisons, but can be a real turn off for some players / character concepts.

(Similalry, a trolls massive weight is a problem not factored into the build point comparison; if your buddies can't drag you to safety when you go down, that can be a real problem.)

[Ol' Scratch]

Most people ignore the secondary perks, too, like natural Thermographic Vision and the +2 to resist toxins and pathogens. Mostly because they're pointless (at least in 4th Edition; there's no difference between natural and technological Thermographic Vision,and cybereyes are probably the most common implant across all archetypes) or just plain hard to quantify. But as others have said, it really comes down to personal taste when playing a dwarf. Their mechanics aren't anything to write home about unless you're playing a very specific group of concepts, but their flavor is a blast if you can get over your min-max tendencies. Which everyone has to one degree or another even if they won't admit it to themselves.

I like them because they're a hearty, down-to-earth people who commonly have strong ties to one another due to always being overlooked and ignored by everyone else. They can often be found in the most important roles in society (at least as far as a runner is concerned), such as administration and technical professions, and their commonly gruff, stubborn, and Napoleonic personalities are fun to play. At least for me, for some strange reason.

Elves on the other hand are just boring. They're like the O.C. or Melrose Place of metatypes. Nice to look at, but mind-numbingly dull to be around.

[D2F]

<shrugs> You're still not correct. Humans are the baseline, and that baseline includes a +1 bonus. You inability to process that is of no concern to me, so think whatever you want to think. It won't make it any more right.

Oh the irony...