and in this corner....?, Is there a power for good in the world? Options

[Snow_Fox]

The world of Shadowrun has always been proudly dystopian with humanity being gorund under various forces(Mega corps,policlubs, anarchic gangs, toxic mages, bug spirits,AI, Horrors) that are at best uncaring and at worst activily hostile towards humanity, seeking to enslave, destroy or corrupt them. against this seems to be athin line of humanity, often these are Shadowrunners who are sometimes Robin Hoods, sometimes just mercinary hoods.

But yet humanity survives and even seems to thrive. so is there some higher power hidden in the wings? some greater force for good supporting metahumanity or is it just our indominable spirit?

Cannonically Dunkelzahn could be seen as such and he tried to motivate elder powers to act for good, he actions even living on from beyond the grave. At the risk of offending Christians, he willingly sacrified himself (to destroy the Horrors) so that metahumanity might live on. But is there more out there? a higher power for good that might serve to, if not take a direct hand in things, motivates and directs people to the needed place and action for the greater good?

[Garou]

I know nothing of earthdawn, Snow, but i like the whole "stronger human spirit" thingy, metaphisically speaking. Maybe (meta)humanity can be an important piece on a distant future, as we are edgier (pun intended) than other threats that still might come.

[Draco18s]

In general: most of the Great Dragons. Though admittedly they're more along the lines of neutrality, but they certainly don't want the horrors showing up (its as bad for them as it is for us).

[kjones]

Dunkelzahn died for your sins! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mongoose]

Anybody old enough to have survived the 4rth world (without being corrupted by the horrors) doesn't want the horrors coming back, or at least realizes the need to prepare some way for themselves (and anybody they want to rule over) to survive it. That makes them "the good guys" in that battle.

[Ophis]

Generally Hestaby, Ghostwalker and Lofwyr are imho good guys, however they are very much in the vein of benevolent dictators.
I sort suspect Horizon is a good guy, mostly because the Consensus being a benign force is funnier than it being an evil hive mind.

All this being said, nothing bar the Azzies is outright evil or good in SR, just like in real life.

[CanadianWolverin...]

At the risk of offending Christians, he willingly sacrified himself (to destroy the Horrors) so that metahumanity might live on.

Speaking as a non-denominational Christian IRL (not speaking for all Christ Followers / Jesus Freaks), I don't see how that could possibly be offensive, not just because this is fiction/fantasy. IMHO, it is the opposite, its rather flattering to have such ideals fictionalized and can be seen a homage possibly in a indirect fashion. If anything, it would be my hope that fiction of this sort would help others evaluate for themselves what is clearly fictional about religion in general, one of my reasons for being decidedly non-denominational yet still having a belief in a relationship with God. Does that make me stupid? Perhaps, but I hope I can over come my own stupidity eventually and make the world a better place to live in by showing love. Good intentions only go so far if they are delusional and/or ineffective, so I hope I make it clear that practicing something is quite the opposite of perfection, so I should try to avoid being judgemental and just enjoy a bit of fun lawless (see: unjust laws) fiction. Robin Hood indeed.

So, should be pretty obvious which side I think I come down on as to if there are other forces at play that are interested in doing something that can be realized as good. But the reason I think the place remains a dystopia regardless of any forces of good virtues would have to be very simple: individual choice. So, sure, angels of all stripes might walk among metahumanity (even be indistinguishable from it) but it doesn't change that metahumanity still has a choice - not that that those choices are easy or unrestrained though. I would hazard a guess it would be the choice of a free spirit of some sort. And I could also see a possibility in an AI looking to seek a better life for all as well.

I even think forces of good would have direct ties (or tie ins) to Shadowrunners, if those runners show a preference for minimized collateral damage and blow back, helping out those less fortunate, teaching those willing to learn, dedication to their crafts, and anti-establishment life styles. Particularly, being anti-establishment in a dystopian world doesn't automatically make you "good" but sure does help. Ice cold professionals, only without the ice cold part perhaps.

Heh, I find myself thinking of FotD's latest AAR now, I hope there is a new update in that thread soon.

[Snow_Fox]

Dunkelzahn died for your sins! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

ok good osmeone got it, but I actually was wondering about something more than Dragon's and eon old elves. Possibly something not yet revealed.

[CanadianWolverin...]

ok good osmeone got it, but I actually was wondering about something more than Dragon's and eon old elves. Possibly something not yet revealed.

Angels?

[LurkerOutThere]

Big L would not suffer something as trivial as a magical killing machines from beyond space and time to mess up his sandbox a second time.

[knasser]

Horizon, of course. They say they're the good guys so they must be. Nobody (with air time) disagrees.

Joking aside (at least it's intended as a joke as I see Horizon being one of the most evil megas of all), I don't see there being many great powers for good in the Sixth World. To be honest, I rarely consider power to be associated with good. People have mentioned the Great Dragons, I doubt that. They'll crush dissent and threats to them just as viciously as anyone else. That they might one day use you as cannon fodder against some metaplanar invaders hardly makes them good guys. I think people are viewing this from the GM's point of view. View it from a citizen of the Sixth World and Lofwyr is a vicious megacorp with a CEO that is rumoured to have eaten people.

In cannon, Harlequin is a power for good. Doesn't really apply in my game as my version is a Nieztchean "Beyond Good and Evil" sort of character. I have one player in my group who has read all the old Shadowrun stuff and has a longer history with the game. I'm waiting for the moment he encounters Harlequin and, pretending to be all "I'm not acting on anything my character wouldn't know" but actually ignoring all the warning sides, appeals to Harlequin's humanity or something. And gets an arm cut off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Basically, if you want a power for good in Shadowrun, I think it has to be the mass of humanity itself - those elements within it that still keep the world ticking over in spite of everything.

But then my take on Dragons and Immortal Elves is a fairly scary one. I suppose some spirits could be considered "good guys", but again, I wouldn't count on them.

K.

[Ol' Scratch]

Harlequinn is definitely the big gun for good in Shadowrun. He's just become despondent and has grown weary over time; sort of a paladin who's lost his grace and his will. Unfortunately (or fortunately, really), the writers seem to have said 'fuck you' to the older immortal elves overall, so I doubt we'll be hearing much about him or any of the others except in the most obscure and off-handed of ways. Which is weird considering that they have little trouble using Frosty.

I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.

Ares is often portrayed as good, at least as far as megacorporations go. Their methods are every bit as corrupt as any other megacorp, but at least they try to put on a good show of it. I tend to view Wuxing the same way, though I haven't read much about them.

But most of the organizations or individuals who could be considered a "force of good" are really more selfish than anything. The Atlantean Foundation is a good example of that. I agree overall though. Shadowrun has lots of gray and black... not so much white, if any at all.

[hermit]

Shadowrun is a bit like 40K there. Humainty prevails not because of some cosmic power, but despite several. Humanity is pretty good at enduring under pressure. Dragons and Immortals occasionally help, but mostly are selfish and uncaring entities that view humanity as pawns at best.

Hestaby being one of the more insidious dragons. Lofwyr actually is the "best" of the flock because he is very straightforward about what he is, how he sees himself and where he'd put humanity. The elven court kind of hasa vested interest in humanity's survival (wheel of spirits and all), and some immortals fashion themselves humanity's savior, however incompetent they may be in this (Aina, I'm looking at you).

Anybody old enough to have survived the 4rth world (without being corrupted by the horrors) doesn't want the horrors coming back

Aina also doesn't want them back. She just lacks competence in following this up. None of the named immortals does, including dragons and spirits. Not even the Invae would like the Horrors eating them.

Harley isn't in it for good. Harley's main motivation for life is lulz and to piss off Erhan. Harley isn't interested in the Horrors' return, but less for them devouring humanity (though no doubt he'd miss them) but more because of self interest.

I sort suspect Horizon is a good guy, mostly because the Consensus being a benign force is funnier than it being an evil hive mind.

No, it isn't. It would only make them even more annoying.

I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.

Ares is often portrayed as good, at least as far as megacorporations go. Their methods are every bit as corrupt as any other megacorp, but at least they try to put on a good show of it. I tend to view Wuxing the same way, though I haven't read much about them.

Horizon sounds like a bigger and meaner version of Scientology to me, from what I gather from the current writeups (disregarding the highly annoying way it was pushed to become a AAA corp instead of a producer of crap software). I don't see where they're the worst mega of them all; they're neither in league with forces of doom, like Aztech or Ares, nor do they have the dangerous habit to generate mass murder programs (Raku) and cover their existence up, or destroy entire countries for profit (MCT, Shiawase, Raku), support massive genocide (again, MCT, Raku, Shiawase) or have a secret inner cabal of WTF (cross). They also are not led by veritable monsters (Evo/Yamatetsu, Saeder-Krupp).

I'd rank NeoNET (Transys/Novatech/Erica), Evo and S-K as the least non-benign megas, because all they are is a bit uncaring towards people. The Japanacorps (Renraku, MCT, Shiawase) are mid-range evil, Horizon and Wuxin are a bit of wild cards, but probably mid-range too. Aztech (Horrors) and Ares (Invae) lead the field. Of course, hints have been dropped that Wuxing may suffer from Horror Infestation too, so they may also be worse than they appear.

One needs also keep in mind ALL megas have a benign puzblic face. Aztech's dark secrets are SECRETS to all but the few initiated. It is NOT common knowledge, any more than what really went down in the arcology is, or Knight's pet Invae are, or Celedyr's habit of putting people in brain jars and using them for organic computers (Wonder if he keeps some Mi-Go hidden somewhere)

[Mongoose]

Hermit- where are you getting all this paranoia from? Sure, there's evil influences inside some (probably all) megacorps, but that doesn't mean the entire megacorp is a tool of evil. There's even anti-horror factions within Aztechnology. Ares is pro Invae? Since when? You do realise that in the 4rth world, horrors were enslaved to fight against other horrors?
Last I knew, Buttercup had a big stake in Evo, and there's never been indication that "she" is anything but a force for good. Who are the "monsters" leading Evo? If you know anything about Lowfwyr in the 4rth world, you wouldn't ascribe evil motives to SK. (Militant, yes. Evil, not so much.)

One needs to keep in mind that evil infiltrates any organization, and simply doing research into something is not the same as being ruled by it.

[Draco18s]

Big L would not suffer something as trivial as a magical killing machines from beyond space and time to mess up his sandbox a second time.

Big L?

[kjones]

Big L?

I'm guessing Lowfyr, like how Dunkelzahn was "Big D".

[Ol' Scratch]

Horizon sounds like a bigger and meaner version of Scientology to me

So did the Universal Brotherhood.

I don't see where they're the worst mega of them all; they're neither in league with forces of doom, like Aztech or Ares, nor do they have the dangerous habit to generate mass murder programs (Raku) and cover their existence up, or destroy entire countries for profit (MCT, Shiawase, Raku), support massive genocide (again, MCT, Raku, Shiawase) or have a secret inner cabal of WTF (cross). They also are not led by veritable monsters (Evo/Yamatetsu, Saeder-Krupp).

Of course you don't see it yet, because it hasn't been revealed. They're just a prime example of "too good to be true." And considering all the industries they have their fingers in and which they have focused themselves on, and the fact that they just came out of nowhere and became a AAA all but overnight, it's a terrifying prospect. Like I said in my last post: Media, entertainment, public relations, and pharmaceuticals. How does that not set off red flags for more people? Especially in a world where a shining beacon of good is completely unbelievable? Even the actual shining beacons of good (aka Harly) are completely beaten down.

[hermit]

Hermit- where are you getting all this paranoia from? Sure, there's evil influences inside some (probably all) megacorps, but that doesn't mean the entire megacorp is a tool of evil. [snip] Ares is pro Invae? Since when?

The beginnings were in Threats 2, but since a Good Merge now runs their Magic R&D ... I wager Knight feels he has them under control. Stupid Knight. Invae are not among the things you can control.

Last I knew, Buttercup had a big stake in Evo, and there's never been indication that "she" is anything but a force for good. Who are the "monsters" leading Evo?

Buttercup. A player spirit. You might want to read their entry. And keep in mind that S-K and EVO are the LEAST evil megas in my post. Lofwyr and Buttercup are relatively neutral monsters, but that don't mean they're anywhere near good.

And aside from the Horrors, which are a purely destructive force of nature, there is no "evil" as per moral definition in SR anyway. Even the Invae have a goal that makes sense from their point of view. Shadowrun is an amoral, uncaring universe.

Just, most megas are destructive forces to a greater or lesser degree - Aztech actively works on the apocalypse (though they THINK they are working on preventing it, they are just wrong), Ares is becoming the tool of the Invae invasion, and the Japanacorps are destroying the planet and chasing their tails. Ordo Maximus and their ilk are in it for the lulz, Winternightcertainly will not be the last doomsday cult that take doom seriously, and even most less destructive entities work primarily for their own good, and damned be everyone else. Saeder-Krupp is Lofwyr's attempt at weathering the coming scourge (with chice minions). The Seelie want to make Ireland one big, horror-proof shelter for the elves. Proteus was Evo's, Shiawase's, Nachtmeister's and a couple second tier corps' attempt to build space stations as an exit strategy for the chosen few. Renraku arguably tested a similar, land-based system with it's arcology. Ect. I sure hope they will never revisit the notion from an obscure German novel that Nepal is run by a Horror, but you never know ...

On a side note, anyone remember the Alpha/Omega file? And happens to know the C'Tan, Dragon? See the same parallels to what is hinted there as I do?

Of course you don't see it yet, because it hasn't been revealed. They're just a prime example of "too good to be true." And considering all the industries they have their fingers in and which they have focused themselves on, and the fact that they just came out of nowhere and became a AAA all but overnight, it's a terrifying prospect. Like I said in my last post: Media, entertainment, public relations, and pharmaceuticals. How does that not set off red flags for more people?

In-universe that makes perfect sense, but I have resigend to the fact they will not become a threat. Someone has to pamper the Neo clones and AI PC and all this WoD things that are creeping into playability with 4th ed. From a meta POV, Horizon is your friend. They may censor the matrix and do all the other astounding evils Google does, but that's as evil as they will ever get.
/whine

[Demonseed Elite]

I tend to take the same view of the setting that knasser and hermit have, though I keep it from getting too depressing by having truly good and unselfish acts done by the most downtrodden people. You know, the street shaman that takes in orphaned kids, the soup kitchen feeding the homeless, or the social worker who organizes a support group for broken survivors of the Arcology. I've found that sort of thing not only makes the setting bearable for players, but also ties them strongly to the street.

[Sengir]

The beginnings were in Threats 2, but since a Good Merge now runs their Magic R&D

Huh!? Where do you get that from? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[hermit]

I tend to take the same view of the setting that knasser and hermit have, though I keep it from getting too depressing by having truly good and unselfish acts done by the most downtrodden people. You know, the street shaman that takes in orphaned kids, the soup kitchen feeding the homeless, or the social worker who organizes a support group for broken survivors of the Arcology. I've found that sort of thing not only makes the setting bearable for players, but also ties them strongly to the street.

Oh, make no mistake, I have acts of selflessness in my games too. I even have them in Dark Heresy, though usually, anyone who acts this ends like anyone who is nice in a George R. R. Martin novel. I once had an Atzec orphanage warden NPC who wanted the PC to hood for him. Any corp, for me, contains benign, friendly, helpful people as well as maign, petty and greedy. Even Horizon, though I have yet to use it that way.

[hermit]

Huh!? Where do you get that from? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

In one of the rules expansions (Augmentation, I think, but would have to look it up), a certain Theresa Montgomery is mentioned as new head of magic R&D for Ares. You need to have read the old novels, 2XS and House of the Sun, to understand the implications. Do yourself a favour and read them, they're among the best ever written for Shadowrun. Just as much, Theresa Montgomery is a Good Merge bug (presumably Wasp).

And she is head of magic R&D.

Does that sound reassuring?

[Ol' Scratch]

Just because they might have some corruption, that doesn't mean the corporation itself is corrupt. And considering all the things they did to clean up and deal with the bug spirits in Chicago, why wouldn't they be interested in learning everything they could about them? Fighting fire with fire is a very common American mindset, and Ares is the American megacorporation.

Making a few mistakes doesn't make you evil. If they find out Montgomery is a bug spirit, then just shrug their shoulders and carry on, that might be a bad sign. It's not like Aztechnology, however, where blood magic and evil rituals is par of the course for daily corporate living.

[Ascalaphus]

Where did you get those rumors of Wuxing and Horrors?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

In one of the rules expansions (Augmentation, I think, but would have to look it up), a certain Theresa Montgomery is mentioned as new head of magic R&D for Ares. You need to have read the old novels, 2XS and House of the Sun, to understand the implications. Do yourself a favour and read them, they're among the best ever written for Shadowrun. Just as much, Theresa Montgomery is a Good Merge bug (presumably Wasp).

And she is head of magic R&D.

Does that sound reassuring?

It has been a while since I have read 2XS, but I was under the impression that Theresa Montgomery was a Merged Mantid Spirit... If she is indeed now the Head of Magic R&D for Ares this could be troublesome...

Keep the Faith