and in this corner....?, Is there a power for good in the world? Options

[Sengir]

Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

I knew about this one, but Dirk Montgomery's sister as head of their magic R&D? That would indeed be screwed up

[hermit]

Where did you get those rumors of Wuxing and Horrors?

Runner Havens, the HK chapter, the write-up of the Wuxing spire.

Just because they might have some corruption, that doesn't mean the corporation itself is corrupt. And considering all the things they did to clean up and deal with the bug spirits in Chicago, why wouldn't they be interested in learning everything they could about them? Fighting fire with fire is a very common American mindset, and Ares is the American megacorporation.

Firstly. They breed invae. They do not only fight them, they do not study them, they collect and breed them.

Ares is an 80s American megacorp. They're OCP. They're Wayland-Yutani. Do you really think they can handle an extinction level chitinoid threat to humanity in any way sensibly?

I agree, fighting fire with fire was the basic idea (that, and damn, bugs need no wages, and "we can get Blue Bacosoy* back into production! $$$!"). This fighting with fire idea has come back to bite America in the arse how often by now? It's as stupid as thinking the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

Making a few mistakes doesn't make you evil. If they find out Montgomery is a bug spirit, then just shrug their shoulders and carry on, that might be a bad sign. It's not like Aztechnology, however, where blood magic and evil rituals is par of the course for daily corporate living.

Hiring a bug spirit for head of R&D is more than a little mistake. It's like making bin Laden Attourney General. This doesn't just happen. This is deliberate. And no, in Aztech, evil sacrificial blood magic is practiced behind closed doors also, though no doubt rumors abound about it.

It has been a while since I have read 2XS, but I was under the impression that Theresa Montgomery was a Merged Mantid Spirit... If she is indeed now the Head of Magic R&D for Ares this could be troublesome...

I am certain it was Wasp. I am not certain who had rounded her up in House of the Sun, though. If it were the Desolation Angels, Ares would be less over the brink than if it were a more common hive.

*You must know Queen Euphoria for this. Basically, it is bacon-flavoured slurm. Just, it was around 10 years before Futurama.

[Ol' Scratch]

Hiring a bug spirit for head of R&D is more than a little mistake. It's like making bin Laden Attourney General. This doesn't just happen. This is deliberate

A statement like that requires proof. Who's to say she didn't manipulate her way into position, rather than having the corporation seek her out? Is there any proof that Ares or anyone else int he know is even aware that she's a bug spirit? I gave up reading the novels a long time ago, so I have no idea what the events are in there. But unless it's absolutely clear that Ares searched high and low to hire a bug spirit as their head of magic research and development, you can't say it's "deliberate."

[Demonseed Elite]

And just to really screw with your heads, there are some in Aztechnology who probably think they are saving the world. After all, Aztec myth is heavily steeped in the idea that sacrifice is necessary to preserve life. Literally, the Aztecs would sacrifice people (including volunteers) to keep the sun shining. There are probably some in Aztechnology who believe the sacrifice of the few is necessary to save the many.

After all, with its network of aspected teocallis, few nations are in a better position than Aztlan to wield magic on a scale that could protect itself from Horrors. The path to facing down the Horrors and surviving isn't always pretty (for example: see the Theran Empire).

[hermit]

And just to really screw with your heads, there are some in Aztechnology who probably think they are saving the world. After all, Aztec myth is heavily steeped in the idea that sacrifice is necessary to preserve life. Literally, the Aztecs would sacrifice people (including volunteers) to keep the sun shining. There are probably some in Aztechnology who believe the sacrifice of the few is necessary to save the many.

After all, with its network of aspected teocallis, few nations are in a better position than Aztlan to wield magic on a scale that could protect itself from Horrors. The path to facing down the Horrors and surviving isn't always pretty (for example: see the Theran Empire).

Yes. I said as much. They believe they are saving the world. Hell, Thera was as much, if not deeper, into blood magic than Aztech.

They just are doing it wrong.

The (historical) Aztechs didn't only sacrifice volunteers, though. That'S why Cortez was able to oust them - they were VERY unpopular with all neighbouring tribes, free cities and whatnot, for their constant slave raids to feed their ever thirsty gods.

I recommend the novel 'blood sport' (one of the old novels) for an insight into Aztech. It's no high literature, but easy enough to read, at least to the German-only FanPro novels, and very useful for an Aztlan campaign.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes. I said as much. They believe they are saving the world. Hell, Thera was as much, if not deeper, into blood magic than Aztech.

They just are doing it wrong.

By Whose Standards?

Keep the Faith

[hermit]

By Whose Standards?

Keep the Faith

Anyone's who does not want the world being eaten by the Scourge.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Anyone's who does not want the world being eaten by the Scourge.

That makes an assumption that the next Scourge will go off exactly as the last one did... That is a monumental leap of Intuition and logic...

Keep the Faith

[hermit]

That makes an assumption that the next Scourge will go off exactly as the last one did... That is a monumental leap of Intuition and logic...

Keep the Faith

Not as great a leap than to expect Horrors can be controlled once the gates of horrorplane are wide open.

It may actually get worse, thinking o Alpha and Omega.

[nylanfs]

You know this argument gets a lot funnier if you just look at the poster's pictures and not the names. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not as great a leap than to expect Horrors can be controlled once the gates of horrorplane are wide open.

It may actually get worse, thinking o Alpha and Omega.

It definitly could be worse... but then again, it may not be as bad either with the level of Technology that exists now compared to the last Scourge...

The Previous Scourge faced a Lot of Magical opposition... the next one could be facing Technology, and as we all know, Magic and Technology rarely tend to get along...

It is Sort of a toss up as to how the next Scourge will actually play out...

Keep the Faith

[hermit]

It definitly could be worse... but then again, it may not be as bad either with the level of Technology that exists now compared to the last Scourge...

The Previous Scourge faced a Lot of Magical opposition... the next one could be facing Technology, and as we all know, Magic and Technology rarely tend to get along...

It is Sort of a toss up as to how the next Scourge will actually play out...

Keep the Faith

The Horrors will adapt. They always did. Overconfidence does not do anyone good there. Ask the Bloodwood Elves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's not like Scouts weren't there already - wraith spirits, and likely Shedim, too (who need a kick to materialise but then linger, are hated by all spirits and posess a power - forced Karma drain - limited to Horrors in Earthdawn). The main force will NOT come unprepared. The clever ones, that is, a good part of the Scourge is just blindly feeding monsters. If you know CthulhuTech, think Rapine Storm and Chrysalis combined.

I am still convinced Chrysalis has more than it's share of Inspiration in Aztech, much as I love the split of Nyarlathotheb's cult into modern corporates and old-school cloak-and-Ftaghn priests. Conservative demon worshippers ftw!.

[Stahlseele]

Aztlan is actually trying to BRIDGE the Chasm on the metaplane between Thayla, the singing Goddess and Lethe/Burnout/Dunkelzahn the magical Cyberzombie with the Dragon Heart fused to his hand, and the side of THE ENEMY.
Also, THE ENEMY seems to be drawn in by big uses of Magic. Especially Blood Magic. Now think about the Great Ghost Dance 1 and 2 for a Second here.

[hermit]

Aztlan is actually trying to BRIDGE the Chasm on the metaplane between Thayla, the singing Goddess and Lethe/Burnout/Dunkelzahn the magical Cyberzombie with the Dragon Heart fused to his hand, and the side of THE ENEMY.
Also, THE ENEMY seems to be drawn in by big uses of Magic. Especially Blood Magic. Now think about the Great Ghost Dance 1 and 2 for a Second here.

To their credit, that was Darke and his cult, not Aztech's will. They were misled, but most of them save the Tainted Dragon, Darke and a few others (Aztcawhatshisface the president, presumably) did not know.

[Doc Byte]

But yet humanity survives and even seems to thrive. so is there some higher power hidden in the wings? some greater force for good supporting metahumanity or is it just our indominable spirit?

Maybe some or even most mentor spirits?

[kjones]

I'm looking at RH p. 25 (Wuxing Skytower) and I'm not seeing anything connecting Wuxing and Horrors. Am I just failing to read between the lines?

[hermit]

Okay, it was in more than one place. And not in the skytower section. What you want to look at is the HK magic section: Aberdeen Rift and Yama Kings.

I have only the translated book in my possession, so i cannot quote in English, nor give page and line numbers. Paraphrasing must do. In the Aberdeen Rift section, we have a passage that emphathises the high magic of the place - five intersecting mana lines and an artifact of immense power. Halley also donated mana, and part of the power of the Aberdeen tower comes from a rift through the lanes, it is hinted. This ties with the Aberdeen Skytower section, where it is said that Wuxing's fortune depends on this power flow. You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Also, the upper levels of the sky tower are sealed off ever since the passage appeared. And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage. I guess this is Crater Lake all over again.

Now, take the Yama kings. They live off fear and make people do horrible things, to torment them with later. They make them preents. They taint them. There is only one thing in the SR universe that does such things.

Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple. And the Alpha/Omega text is referenced.

[Ol' Scratch]

Regarding my earlier question: Is there evidence that she didn't manipulate her way into Ares? Bug spirits are insidious and clever enemies. Assuming that just because she was able to risee to a prominent position that means the entire corporation is infected is a pretty big leap. It's the difference between that and a company like Aztechnology (which was taken out of context, as usual): The higher-ups of Aztechnology include numerous blood mages, and blood sacrifices and worse are a natural part of their business operations. That's grotesquely different than a bug spirit managed to sneak her way into a position of power. And if she's suitably powerful, masking metamagic and magicks can easily help her maintain a very low profile against detection.

So unless there's lots of people out there who knows exactly what she is (and for whatever reason is just letting her run around doing whatever she wants), I find it really hard to believe that you can use that as proof that Ares, as a whole, is completely corrupt.

[hermit]

Regarding my earlier question: Is there evidence that she didn't manipulate her way into Ares? Bug spirits are insidious and clever enemies. Assuming that just because she was able to risee to a prominent position that means the entire corporation is infected is a pretty big leap.

(...)

So unless there's lots of people out there who knows exactly what she is (and for whatever reason is just letting her run around doing whatever she wants), I find it really hard to believe that you can use that as proof that Ares, as a whole, is completely corrupt.

There is.

The Threats chapter had something hinted about queen spirits and Ares cutting a deal. Yes, Theresa Montgomery may have been planted, but since she received years and years of treatment for her first, uncompleted merge, a simple background check would have sufficed to reveal her at least as doubtful. Also, she was never listed as a mage before HotS. Curious, eh? Sorry, Ares needs to be blind in a way I just cannot believe to hire her without knowing her nature.

If she really is with the Angels - I'll have to reread HotS for this - then Ares has thrown in with the Mantids, going by the all-american false assumption that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. And that means they are lost.

[Ol' Scratch]

And that means they are lost.

Not necessarily. In trouble? Yes. Likely to have it explode in their faces? Yes. But it doesn't make them completely corrupt. Unlike, again, an organization like Aztechnology which is rotten from the core. They're certainly not beyond redemption, and I seriously doubt if they'd make such an agreement (if true) without having failsafes. Failsafes that will undoubtedly not work, but failsafes nonetheless. Which would just prove now they're not lost; if they were, I doubt they'd care and they'd have far more bug spirits in the upper ranks.

[Ophis]

I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.

This is all reasons why they should be good guys, everybody is looking for the dodgy, it's way to obvious that they are evil. The style of evil they are has been done before and we didn't trust it then. If they are good guys (look at their handling of the Emergence problem, they tried to keep things calm and be reasonable) they can do good things but we will all keep trying to look for the dodgy, which may not be there. As bad guys they are obvious and nothing new, as good guys they are fabulous paranoia food.

[Demonseed Elite]

Okay, it was in more than one place. And not in the skytower section. What you want to look at is the HK magic section: Aberdeen Rift and Yama Kings.

I have only the translated book in my possession, so i cannot quote in English, nor give page and line numbers. Paraphrasing must do. In the Aberdeen Rift section, we have a passage that emphathises the high magic of the place - five intersecting mana lines and an artifact of immense power. Halley also donated mana, and part of the power of the Aberdeen tower comes from a rift through the lanes, it is hinted. This ties with the Aberdeen Skytower section, where it is said that Wuxing's fortune depends on this power flow. You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Also, the upper levels of the sky tower are sealed off ever since the passage appeared. And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage. I guess this is Crater Lake all over again.

Now, take the Yama kings. They live off fear and make people do horrible things, to torment them with later. They make them preents. They taint them. There is only one thing in the SR universe that does such things.

Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple. And the Alpha/Omega text is referenced.

I'm not dismissing this theory, but I do want to point out something. The tampering that Wuxing is rumored to be reacting to, and the reason they closed off the top floors of the Skytower, is a reference to the Balance run in Survival of the Fittest, where the runners manipulate the feng shui at the top of the Skytower on behalf of Hestaby and Buttercup.

But could the Yama Kings have come through the Aberdeen Shallow, where the barrier between the Earth and the Astral is very thin? It's entirely possible.

[Sengir]

You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Sure, places of high mana attact them. But that does not mean everybody who uses major mojo is in league with them, a corp which is heavily involved in magic certainly has enough benign (at least benign compared to "they're trying to build a bridge for The Enemy") reasons to secure a place with lots of mana.

And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage.

The shadowtalk says the Aberdeen Shallow used to be permanent, until some "outside source" screwed around with it, not that Wuxing itself is trying to close it.

Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple.

Talk of heavily cybered people, a presence which taints the astral space and Man-of-many-names mentions that someone's "immortality is not meant to be". Cyberware, cheating death and something which taints the astral, I think that's a rather clear case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



And I finally looked up Theresa Montgomery, here's what Augmentation has to say about her:
Cross Biomedical was later bought out by Ares Macrotechnology and renamed Info-santé. Under Ares-appointed CEO Theresa Montgomery, Info-santé is ruthlessly expanding and pursuing new service contracts, leading to some tensions with DocWagon, CrashCart, and EuroMedis.

So she's the boss of Ares' HTR subsidary - not the worst position for someone like her, but at least not head of magic R&D.

[hermit]

Then I misremembered, thanks.

Still, I'd expect Ares doing a couple background checks on their branch CEOs. VERY unlikely they'd miss her previous therapy, her suddenly appearing magical talent and the likes.

Sure, places of high mana attact them. But that does not mean everybody who uses major mojo is in league with them, a corp which is heavily involved in magic certainly has enough benign (at least benign compared to "they're trying to build a bridge for The Enemy") reasons to secure a place with lots of mana.

Yeah, Aina DuPree also had benign motives for her crater lake Yrsthingy smash ritual. Only it blew in her face. Also, it says the Aberdeen passage links to the deep metaplanes where nobody has ever been before. What could that be?

The shadowtalk says the Aberdeen Shallow used to be permanent, until some "outside source" screwed around with it, not that Wuxing itself is trying to close it.

That actually supports my suspicion they are not interested in reining in the Horrors they let run free.

Talk of heavily cybered people, a presence which taints the astral space and Man-of-many-names mentions that someone's "immortality is not meant to be". Cyberware, cheating death and something which taints the astral, I think that's a rather clear case

Must be the taint of too much Dark Heresy then, but I read 'Void Dragon'.

[The_Vanguard]

The world of Shadowrun has always been proudly dystopian with humanity being gorund under various forces(Mega corps,policlubs, anarchic gangs, toxic mages, bug spirits,AI, Horrors) that are at best uncaring and at worst activily hostile towards humanity [...]

Megacorps, policlubs and anarchic gangs are a part of humanity. They're startegies humans employ in order to further their own chances of survival. We don't really need higher powers to look after us - our ability to adapt and cooperate has been sufficent until now.
Actually, shadowrunners are one of the main disruptive forces of the 6th world. They undermine laws, social systems and economic structures and shield the true insitgators from repercussions. The shadow war is entropic by nature. The Horrors, in contrast, feed off human emotions and are therefore very much interested in mankind's long term survival.