and in this corner....?, Is there a power for good in the world? Options

[Demonseed Elite]

Also, it says the Aberdeen passage links to the deep metaplanes where nobody has ever been before. What could that be?

I don't recall it saying that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hagga]

So did the Universal Brotherhood.


Of course you don't see it yet, because it hasn't been revealed. They're just a prime example of "too good to be true." And considering all the industries they have their fingers in and which they have focused themselves on, and the fact that they just came out of nowhere and became a AAA all but overnight, it's a terrifying prospect. Like I said in my last post: Media, entertainment, public relations, and pharmaceuticals. How does that not set off red flags for more people? Especially in a world where a shining beacon of good is completely unbelievable? Even the actual shining beacons of good (aka Harly) are completely beaten down.

They're already brainwashing everyone and everything that holds still long enough to BE brainwashed.

[Sengir]

Still, I'd expect Ares doing a couple background checks on their branch CEOs. VERY unlikely they'd miss her previous therapy, her suddenly appearing magical talent and the likes.

Certainly. Then again, we only know the name and nothing else...if you want to be really paranoid, do we actually know that the Theresa who went into rehab is the same one who ran away into the arms of her six-legged friends? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, it says the Aberdeen passage links to the deep metaplanes where nobody has ever been before. What could that be?

It says the rift is deepening and might allow some things from astral space to cross over into our world, not that it allows access to the deep metaplanes or even beyond...at least not for the near future.

That actually supports my suspicion they are not interested in reining in the Horrors they let run free.

Or maybe it doesn't have anything to do with The Enemy and Wuxing just secured a strategic positio. People used to build towns where important trade routes crossed, now the big players in the magic scene set up shop where mana lines cross.

Must be the taint of too much Dark Heresy then, but I read 'Void Dragon'.

40k has dragons? Well, I knew the universe has immortal space elves, so...



In general I find some of your ideas (like Renraku Arc being a Caer prototype) highly interesting, but IMO you are concentrating too much on interpreting a sinister plot by The Enemy into everything. There is more than one conspiracy going on in SR...and even those which might be connected to sinister things from far out do not neccessarily have to support them. Sure, strong magic does attract Horrors, but as the Dragonheart and Harlequin have shown it can also put them in their place.

[hermit]

Certainly. Then again, we only know the name and nothing else...if you want to be really paranoid, do we actually know that the Theresa who went into rehab is the same one who ran away into the arms of her six-legged friends?

Yes, we do.

40k has dragons? Well, I knew the universe has immortal space elves, so...

It's one of the Necron deities. 40K surely also has dragons though, just make them a Xeno species with strong psychic abilities. The really weird stuff is in the necrons, though.

In general I find some of your ideas (like Renraku Arc being a Caer prototype) highly interesting, but IMO you are concentrating too much on interpreting a sinister plot by The Enemy into everything.

I am not. I said Aztech and possibly Wuxing suffer from a Horrors infestation. Not saying they are linked (the Horrors are individualists, not a grand army of hell). And other corps, like Ares and it'S Bug Problem, have different horrible things happening.

Pity Schockwellen never was translated, it went into great depths with the whole idea that arcologies are caers. Proteus', granted, but Raku's arc was very, very similar in conception to Proteus' Arcoblocks.

[Demonseed Elite]

I don't really think Wuxing suffers from a Horror infestation, but they do have a creepy partnership with Aztechnology going. There are numerous references to back-room deals made between the two corps and at least one of those deals involved the exchange of Wuxing's knowledge of geomancy for Aztechnology's knowledge of blood magic.

[hermit]

Elements within Wuxing might be. As with Aztech, though not as widespread.

[LurkerOutThere]

Personally that's I think the saving grace of the megacorps, their huge enough that short of literary device it's unlikely that they'd all fall to any single conspiracy. Hell even aztechnology the poster child for enemy toe hold in this world has signifigant members of the inner circle who disapprove of blood magic and it's associated issues. It is entirely possible that some of these issues are compartmentalized, it's entirely possible that Knight is aware who and what his head of magical R&D is and has chosen to watch it or work with it always having a set of highly competent and trusted shadowrunners on speed dial to take care of the issue or a firewatch team if he decides to be unsubtle about it.

[Sengir]

Yes, we do.

Did someone do a DNA check? Maybe Ares snatched her and replaced her with a double, if you want conspiracies everywhere... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I am not. I said Aztech and possibly Wuxing suffer from a Horrors infestation. Not saying they are linked (the Horrors are individualists, not a grand army of hell). And other corps, like Ares and it'S Bug Problem, have different horrible things happening.

...and except for the Azzies dealing with the enemy those are only conjecture. Wuxing infested by Horrors? Maybe, or maybe they are using the artifact inherited from Big zo fight the horrors, or they could just use the jackload of mana for something completely different

Pity Schockwellen never was translated, it went into great depths with the whole idea that arcologies are caers.

Hmm, I only remember that Nachtmeister had a lot of interest in the arc projects...which again could mean anything, dragon plans are rarely straighforward or philanthropic.

[hermit]

it's entirely possible that Knight is aware who and what his head of magical R&D is and has chosen to watch it or work with it always having a set of highly competent and trusted shadowrunners on speed dial to take care of the issue or a firewatch team if he decides to be unsubtle about it.

Of course he does. But that never, ever works.

Did someone do a DNA check? Maybe Ares snatched her and replaced her with a double, if you want conspiracies everywhere.

Uhm ... you have no idea of the Dirk Montgomery story, do you?I'm not saying this as an affront, only to point out it seems to me you are unaware of key facts of it, like that she became a bug far before she became attached to Ares, which is an integral part of this character's story. And no, you can not switch a bug spirit for a cloned double agent, because said agent would not be a bug.

...and except for the Azzies dealing with the enemy those are only conjecture. Wuxing infested by Horrors? Maybe, or maybe they are using the artifact inherited from Big zo fight the horrors, or they could just use the jackload of mana for something completely different

Horrors are not cheesy Buffyverse demons who appear when called. Horrors are abyeffect of strong magic. You cannot have one without the other. Daniel Coleman could not, Aina DuPree could not, the Therans could not, the Dragons could not, and neither can the megas. It's an integral part of the canon lore.

Hmm, I only remember that Nachtmeister had a lot of interest in the arc projects...which again could mean anything, dragon plans are rarely straighforward or philanthropic.

Proteus build survivable, sealed, autonomous and heavily warded arcologies and sought to reopen the lost human space habitats. Proteus also owned a habitat themselves. Proteus gengineered humans adapted to life in space entirely.

All those ventures make zero business sense. Proteus had little in the money making department too. Proteus lived off (vast) amounts of mones two megas, three second tier eurocorps, a host of PPG corps, a Great and several lesser dragons poured into it for the sole role of building caer-ish habitats. Seems they were not eager to pay in blood for whoever found the Books of Harrow this time.

[LurkerOutThere]

Why not? Have we truly become so tropified that we can't even conceive another possibility? Is the enemy literally so skilled that they always win if you don't kill it with fire and so implacable and unified in their evilness that some sort of workign relationship couldn't be reached. I mean lets not sell Knight short, he is arguably the worlds smartest man and possibly the most powerful non-dragon on the planet. I would be rather disapointed if we went to the whole beyond your ken route with this.

[hermit]

Why not? Have we truly become so tropified that we can't even conceive another possibility? Is the enemy literally so skilled that they always win if you don't kill it with fire and so implacable and unified in their evilness that some sort of workign relationship couldn't be reached. I mean lets not sell Knight short, he is arguably the worlds smartest man and possibly the most powerful non-dragon on the planet. I would be rather disapointed if we went to the whole beyond your ken route with this.

Firstly, Bugs are not the Enemy. Bugs are a different awakened threat.

Secondly, spirits are really damn hard to contain. Bug infestation is incredibly hard to control. And you also have to contend with bug shamans or queen spirits who call these lesser worker spirits Knight seems to think is a good idea having around.

That is a venture that is very likely to spiral out of control. It is enormously risky and has few and limited benefits. If Knight really is so intelligent, he must have a plan, and whatever that is, since it involves a large scale bug infestation, it cannot be good.

Maybe Knight himself has been bugged? At least some bug spirits can planeswalk. Nothing can stop them unless you always have sentries with their weapons at the ready and special bug killer ammo on hand.

[Sengir]

like that she became a bug far before she became attached to Ares

But only after she was send to rehab. The hypothetical conspiracy would go like this
1.) Ares collects people who had a close brush with the bugs
2.) They learned of Theresa and swapped the real one for a double to avoid suspicion
3.) The one Dirk sees in company of the bug shaman is fake

Not that I believe this, just saying that the answer might not always be "evil spirits from the metaplanes"

You cannot have one without the other.

In case of mana warps and mana lines (Ring of Fire, Australia, Britain) you obviously can. And like I said, several rituals of great magic have been used AGAINST the horrors, so even if we assume the whole shebang is connected to creepy things from another world, we don't know what side Wuxing is on.


Or from outside the universe: SR is not a one-trick pony. Horrors are great story devices, but not behind everything.

[hermit]

Or from outside the universe: SR is not a one-trick pony. Horrors are great story devices, but not behind everything.

Yes. I never said that? Sometimes there are, for instance, Invae. Which is what you responded to in the very same post. That is a bit ... incoherent.

In case of mana warps and mana lines (Ring of Fire, Australia, Britain) you obviously can. And like I said, several rituals of great magic have been used AGAINST the horrors, so even if we assume the whole shebang is connected to creepy things from another world, we don't know what side Wuxing is on.

The british Ley have never been fully activated, nor has the Ring of Fire. Also, those are large areas where the Mana has a lesser 'density' than if focused in a small spot of immense power, like the crossing of five ley line, or one of the world's navels or whatever the white rock and crater lake are. That cannot be compared. Tibet might, but then again we have no idea what is going on there. Maybe the cloud is not to keep something out - bit something contained?

1.) Ares collects people who had a close brush with the bugs
2.) They learned of Theresa and swapped the real one for a double to avoid suspicion
3.) The one Dirk sees in company of the bug shaman is fake

And what about her precious bodily fluids?

Sorry, that is so far out there I refuse to consider this.

[Sengir]

Yes. I never said that? Sometimes there are, for instance, Invae. Which is what you responded to in the very same post. That is a bit ... incoherent.

Uh, great. Sometimes the force behind everything is not a magical menace from the deepest metaplanes, but a magical menace from the deepest metaplanes. Maybe add some hostile aliens who will crush us once [stuff happens]?

In terms of plot devices they are all the same and get boring real soon.

The british Ley have never been fully activated, nor has the Ring of Fire

Especially the RoF, which is somehow connected to the dragon lines, saw some pretty heavy manipulations. So far without too many horrors coming through, maybe mana follows the old "nature = good, artifical = evil" cliche..

[hermit]

Uh, great. Sometimes the force behind everything is not a magical menace from the deepest metaplanes, but a magical menace from the deepest metaplanes. Maybe add some hostile aliens who will crush us once [stuff happens]?

In terms of plot devices they are all the same and get boring real soon.

The only thing they have in common is that they're magical threats. And if you had bothered to read my posts above, I have said that Aztech (Horrors) and Ares (Invae) are the most 'evil' corps, the other megas being somewhat lesser evil and in vastly different ways.

Especially the RoF, which is somehow connected to the dragon lines, saw some pretty heavy manipulations. So far without too many horrors coming through, maybe mana follows the old "nature = good, artifical = evil" cliche..

To a dregree. It is artificial, focused magic versus magical potential, if you will. There are no naturally occurring Ghost Dances or other large-scale blood magic. There is magical potential, but left by itself it does little more than generate an odd Mana storm and make local Fey happy little critters.

[Saint Sithney]

Here's a question.

What are the major forces for good today, and why do you suspect that they no longer exist in the 6th world?

[Ol' Scratch]

What are the major forces for good today, and why do you suspect that they no longer exist in the 6th world?

I would say FOX News just to see the reaction, but I can't even in jest.

[hermit]

What are the major forces for good today, and why do you suspect that they no longer exist in the 6th world?

Okay, all insulting jokes aside, there are 'forces of good' in this world? Would you care to name a few?

[Stahlseele]

World Health Organization?
Red Cross?
UNO/Blue Helmets?
Bono?

[Sengir]

The only thing they have in common is that they're magical threats.

Suppose we get new SR novels (not counting those obscure ones like Digitaler Albtraum), and every single one of those novels ends with the same scenario: The situation is FUBARed in truly epic porportions, until a mighty magician comes along, performs some weird ritual and the everything is fine again. However, the nature of this magician and his ritual is different in each novel, once it it a shaman, then a hermetic, a theurgic mage...

What would you say about these hypothetical novels:
1.) Every novel is creative and not in any way a cheap copy of the previous one
2.) Booooring, it's the same Deus Ex Machina every time and they just change the exact nature of that device.

There are no naturally occurring Ghost Dances or other large-scale blood magic.

The Japanese might want to have a word with you regarding what happened in 2061...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Bono?

I always assumed that he was killed by Elves after they got their own little island. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
What about the Branjolina couple, I'm sure they would be all excited about adopting a kid of each metahuman species (and their metavariants).
Of course, by 2070 they would be with a hundred-ish years but nothing that money and geneware can't cure (after all, getting old IS a disease).

[last_of_the_grea...]

You know, cannonically speaking, Damian Knight is a megalomaniac who would rule the world if he could. Ares is probably a tool toward that end. Perhaps he also percieves other things to be tools, not threats to himself. After all, how could a man of his stature and potency be wrong or ever fail?

[hermit]

Suppose we get new SR novels (not counting those obscure ones like Digitaler Albtraum), and every single one of those novels ends with the same scenario: The situation is FUBARed in truly epic porportions, until a mighty magician comes along, performs some weird ritual and the everything is fine again.

What would you say about these hypothetical novels:
1.) Every novel is creative and not in any way a cheap copy of the previous one
2.) Booooring, it's the same Deus Ex Machina every time and they just change the exact nature of that device.

Point is, the Invae and the Horrors are neither the only threats, nor are they so similar. Your comparison just lacks. But let's be kind of constructive. What kinds of evil would you have then? Surely you must have some ideas up your sleeve, or would you be just complaining for the whine's sake (if so, have some cheese to go with it).

You know, cannonically speaking, Damian Knight is a megalomaniac who would rule the world if he could. Ares is probably a tool toward that end. Perhaps he also percieves other things to be tools, not threats to himself. After all, how could a man of his stature and potency be wrong or ever fail?

Yes. Exactly. Hubris and fall and all.

I always assumed that he was killed by Elves after they got their own little island.

Nope. They built him a memorial, his work is protected by their draconian culture laws, and most elves agree he had an elven spirit (yes, Tir na nOg EXPLICITLY says all three).

The Japanese might want to have a word with you regarding what happened in 2061...

You mean an earthquake? I cannot remember that it was accompanied by freak storms and critter stampedes eating the Japanese army, the weather being fucked up for generations, and several nuclear powerplants going up like mushrooms. It was an earthquake and a volcano erupting. Considering Japan is Japan, this is nothing unusual. The Ghost Dance was a few magnitudes above this.

[nezumi]

I have to say, hermit, you are rocking my world. This is great stuff.



As for the original question... God, or the Great Spirit. The Tao. Use what name you want. It has been made clear that there is a power beyond normal human understanding. We've seen it in the astral, in the ripples we know to be spirits (and we know that dragons and elves and each of us too are only a ripple on that sea of magic). The "gods" or great spirits, everything else falls from that selfsame source. And while it is that source of all life and all magic which leads to conflict, to suffering, to greed and sin, when one steps beyond the cycle, he can recognize in that constant flow of life the rapture of all living, of all dying.

This flow exists, is real, and cannot be defeated, because it is the fabric of the universe.

Certainly this source is still with us, is still benevolent, and in its way, is guiding the way of all things.

[Ancient History]

Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

In one of the rules expansions (Augmentation, I think, but would have to look it up), a certain Theresa Montgomery is mentioned as new head of magic R&D for Ares. You need to have read the old novels, 2XS and House of the Sun, to understand the implications. Do yourself a favour and read them, they're among the best ever written for Shadowrun. Just as much, Theresa Montgomery is a Good Merge bug (presumably Wasp).

And she is head of magic R&D.

Does that sound reassuring?

Minor, quibbling correction: Theresa Montgomery is head of Ares Medical.