and in this corner....?, Is there a power for good in the world? Options

[Stahlseele]

That is NOT better!

[hermit]

I like to think Magic in SR is kind of like the Force was before the Prequels - the Aether, just existing and birting weird stuff. Unlike Star Wars, however, Shadowrun's Force is amoral and uncaring - and so are most Shadowrun gods. Shadowrun gods would appropriatly be very lovecraftian in nature and not give much of a damn about indivisual people or even metahumanity as a race.

At least in my book. The Universe and the Force are one. Just, the Force coul care less about you.

Minor, quibbling correction: Theresa Montgomery is head of Ares Medical.

Has already been noted, but thanks. I was wrong there. Still, she runs an important subsidiary now. And a Bug running Ares' medical assets is actually even scarier than a bug running Magic R&D.

[Sengir]

Point is, the Invae and the Horrors are neither the only threats, nor are they so similar.

In terms of plot devices they are exactly the same.

What kinds of evil would you have then?

As I said before, I prefer NOT to have a sinister evil conspiracy behind every even in the 6th world, so I see no need to interpret one into every sentence in a sourcebook.

It was an earthquake and a volcano erupting.

Several quakes and volcanoes all around the pacific. Which is exactly what major part of the GGD was.

[hermit]

Several quakes and volcanoes all around the pacific. Which is exactly what major part of the GGD was.

No, it wasn't.

As I said before, I prefer NOT to have a sinister evil conspiracy behind every even in the 6th world, so I see no need to interpret one into every sentence in a sourcebook.

Neither do I. I see a (pretty much confirmed) Horror cult conspiracy behind parts of Aztech and Wuxing. I see Invae making inroads into Ares. The other 7-odd megas are not affected by this. Clear enough?

In terms of plot devices they are exactly the same.

No, they are not. But anyway,

[Sengir]

No, it wasn't.

Uhm, what was the GGD about, then?

The other 7-odd megas are not affected by this.

Except that you see their large projects as defensive measures against The Enemy.

No, they are not.

Mind to point out the differences?

[hermit]

Uhm, what was the GGD about, then?

Crushing the USA and making the Native Resistance invincible. Wiping out entire US task forces. exploding volcanos to destroy startegically imortant installations. Unlike the Ring of Fire that just got kind of active, like it does from time to time.

Except that you see their large projects as defensive measures against The Enemy.

Yes, because that was the metaplot of SR during much of 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition.

Mind to point out the differences?

The Scourge is an extinction level epic threat. It has little variation there. The Scourge also is a looming threat rtather than one that will ever become real. It is the McGuffin that will destroy the world, not an actor in a story.

Bugs, on the other hand, are a cathegory of actors as well as a possible extinction level epic threat. They are much more flexible and can be used in a variety of ways. Foir instance, I once knew a slightly rules defying character who was an insect shaman who had burned himself out (but still had to deal with his totem, mantis). You simply cannot viably do this with the Enemy. You can use Bugs as scaled threats too - from Ares' bug-dogs to random encounters of cockroach spirits in the gutters to the classic sect that really is a hive to looming infiltration. You can use bugs in a lot more ways than the Enemy, even as odd allies (the Desolation Angels especially lend themselves to this).

Clearer?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Nope. They built him a memorial, his work is protected by their draconian culture laws, and most elves agree he had an elven spirit (yes, Tir na nOg EXPLICITLY says all three).

ORLY? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
Source please. I'll buy the pdf just to read this.

[hermit]

ORLY? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
Source please. I'll buy the pdf just to read this.

Tir na nOg. It's a sourcebook from the early 90s.

Info is scattered about the book, in various places ... I think the Bono Memorial is mentioned in the intro chapter, the cultural protection in the chapter on laws and regulations, and the Bono being an Elven Spirit part in the ways and paths. IIRC. I don't read it right now. The book is an interesting read, though, because it is so *old*. It is scary at times how much this Tir, which was intended to be an eco-fundamentalist, isolationist, police state pseudo democracy, reminds at least me of modern European states, especially Germany.

The .pdf is not for sale, though, to the best of my knowledge, you'll have to look for a hardcopy.

[Sengir]

Unlike the Ring of Fire that just got kind of active, like it does from time to time.

Kind of during YotC and kind of when the dragon lines were manipulated...might as well claim that the shenigans at the Wuxing tower all just "happened". And blowing up those volcanoes was the pinnacle of the Ghost Dance, so the mana levels should be comparable.

Yes, because that was the metaplot of SR during much of 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition.

See, that's where we differ: You see everything as connected to The Enemy, I don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The Scourge is an extinction level epic threat.

If there was a bridge (not just some astral link to a shaman, but a connection which every bug can use whenever it pleases him) to the bug metaplane we'd probably be just as screwed. As far as my limited ED knowledge goes the problem does not seem to be the existence of horrors themselves, but the fact that at some point in time they can step into our world at leisure.

[hermit]

Kind of during YotC and kind of when the dragon lines were manipulated...might as well claim that the shenigans at the Wuxing tower all just "happened". And blowing up those volcanoes was the pinnacle of the Ghost Dance, so the mana levels should be comparable.

You might. It'd be nonsense, and I said so above (and Demonseed and Ancient added, among others), but you might. You might want to reread that, though.

See, that's where we differ: You see everything as connected to The Enemy, I don't

I'd rather say we differ in literacy? How often do I have to say not everything is connected to the Enemy? But why can't you accept that some things actually are?

If there was a bridge (not just some astral link to a shaman, but a connection which every bug can use whenever it pleases him) to the bug metaplane we'd probably be just as screwed.

There isn't. Bugs need HOST BODIES to remain in our plane. If there was a bridge it'd help them squat.

As far as my limited ED knowledge goes the problem does not seem to be the existence of horrors themselves, but the fact that at some point in time they can step into our world at leisure.

Your limited knowledge is limited then.

The problem is that strong magic weakens the thresholds between the planes. There is a "Tally", if you will, and if that tally is filled, horrors appear. This will inevitably happen. It could happen extremly fast if you do a ritual of epic proportions on a site where the threshold is low to begin with, though.

And with that in mind, it makes SENSE for everyone who knows what is coming to prepare. Hence the arcologies, arcoblocks, space stations, the veil, possibly the Tibet cloud. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING is connected to the Enemy'S appearance, though, just as currently not everything a nation does is geared towards preparing for global warming and the climate catastrophe that many believe may come.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Tir na nOg. It's a sourcebook from the early 90s.

Info is scattered about the book, in various places ... I think the Bono Memorial is mentioned in the intro chapter, the cultural protection in the chapter on laws and regulations, and the Bono being an Elven Spirit part in the ways and paths. IIRC. I don't read it right now. The book is an interesting read, though, because it is so *old*. It is scary at times how much this Tir, which was intended to be an eco-fundamentalist, isolationist, police state pseudo democracy, reminds at least me of modern European states, especially Germany.

The .pdf is not for sale, though, to the best of my knowledge, you'll have to look for a hardcopy.

Crap, it is most unlikely that I put my hands on a hardcopy, only the second edition, the Urban Samurai Catalogue and the adventure Metagene were translated to portuguese and since you said it is an old book... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) shame, I think it really is an interesting book.

[hermit]

It really is, yes.

And yet another correction: Immentioned Blue Bacosoy above. Actually, the "Slurm" Soy was caled AmberGel. My apologies, guys.

[Sengir]

You might. It'd be nonsense, and I said so above

and why should it be different for the RoF?

There isn't. Bugs need HOST BODIES to remain in our plane.

And with a bridge to our plane they would have a world full of fashionable hosts and tasty snacks...yummy.

The problem is that strong magic weakens the thresholds between the planes. There is a "Tally", if you will, and if that tally is filled, horrors appear. This will inevitably happen. It could happen extremly fast if you do a ritual of epic proportions on a site where the threshold is low to begin with, though.

uuuhmmm...how is that different from my understanding that the problem with The Scourge is not the existence of one or two horrors on our little planet, but the fact that when the planes overlap every malevolent entity from astral space gets a free trip to earth?

[Draco18s]

there are 'forces of good' in this world?

Quoted for truth.

There are organizations that "do good in the world," but none of them are "forces of good" because they're limited by what people (and the government) will give them.

I.E. donations.

Its really really hard to help someone (or help society) when you have no money. On the other hand, its trivial to "be evil" with no money.

[Dread Moores]

And with a bridge to our plane they would have a world full of fashionable hosts and tasty snacks...yummy.

Just having a bridge to our astral space wouldn't help though. They have very specific rituals required to invest a host, not something than can just do while they are quite literally dying in Earthly astral space.

[nezumi]

And with a bridge to our plane they would have a world full of fashionable hosts and tasty snacks...yummy.

As is generally the case with parasitoids, the population would boom, then come into equilibrium. Eating all or even most of the humans would be not only disadvantageous, but impossible.

I worked in an entemology lab studying parasitoid flies and wasps by collecting caterpillars and watching them for if anything hatched out. I would guess somewhere between 5-10% of all our caterpillars were successfully attacked and turned into a host for a parasitoid. Obviously, the comparison doesn't translate over completely, but it seems reasonable - we should not expect more than 10% of the population to become victimized, because beyond that rate, the parasitoid species threatens to destroy itself (by eliminating a critical link in its lifecycle). This applies for ALL parasitoids - not just a single species - since they all rely on the same link.

[Ascalaphus]

There was something that limited the effects of nuclear weaponry, buth during System Faillure and earlier exchanges (Japan/North Korea).

[Demonseed Elite]

I'm just going to hop into this thread for a moment, because during the development of Street Magic, we spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing the Deep Metaplanes and the beings from them, and how the mana cycle fit in with the process.

There are two main things to consider: how do Deep Metaplanar beings get to the Gaiasphere and how do they stay in the Gaiasphere? At the beginning of a mana cycle, the Gaiasphere and the Deep Metaplanes are distant, in a manner of speaking. It's not that they are physically distant, but in some metaphysical sense, there is a nearly-insurmountable distance between the two that prevents Deep Metaplanar beings (Imps, Shedim, Invae, Horrors, etc.) from coming over to the Gaiasphere. As the mana cycle goes on, this distance shortens and Deep Metaplanar beings find ways to get to the Gaiasphere. Certain magic spikes can also build temporary bridges that span that distance, such as the Great Ghost Dance.

But even once a Deep Metaplanar being finds their way to the Gaiasphere, they aren't in the clear. The Gaiasphere is an alien, hostile habitat to Deep Metaplanar beings (and vice versa). They suffer from evanescence; literally they can only survive for a limited amount of time in the Gaiasphere unless they develop a method to sustain themselves. It seems that each type of Deep Metaplanar being has adapted their own methods for surviving in the Gaiasphere: Imps inhabit foci, Shedim inhabit corpses, Invae inhabit living hosts. The Horrors, it can be speculated, sustain themselves in a myriad of ways, including the popular "feeding off of the misery, suffering, and pain of metahumanity." Chances are the beings classified as Horrors are actually a collection of different types of Deep Metaplanar beings with their own methods for surviving the Gaiasphere.

And, of course, there appears to be some variance within the Deep Metaplanes and the being that inhabit them. Some are able to cross over sooner than others, which is why the Invae are always a precursor to the Horrors.

[Red_Cap]

There was something that limited the effects of nuclear weaponry, buth during System Faillure and earlier exchanges (Japan/North Korea).

I always figured this for dragons, even if it is technically too early. The Japan-Korea exchange was in 2006, the Lone Eagle Incident was 2009; and Ryumyo popped up first in 2011. However, in less than a month after Ryumyo woke up, both Celedyr and Dunkie were out and about in the world. It's entirely possible that one of the more secrecy-loving dragons -- say, Aden or Alamais -- woke up early and just kept their heads low, acting only when the survival of the gaiasphere was at stake. There are other incidents that imply a powerful magical intercession, and the "Nightwraith" strikes during the Euro Wars would imply an airborne presence, which implies only one type of culprit.

Now, are dragons our saviors? Probably not. Even during the 4th World, they at least act in the defense of the greater good. They fight against the Therans when they become too great a menace, for starters -- but again, part of that was provocation on the part of the Therans, if memory serves.

Aside from dragons, I feel the need to touch on the topic of God(s). Personally, I'm a rabid atheist, so bear with me and I'll try to keep the sarcasm down. In Threats 2, there's talk about the Catholic Church's new clandestine warrior order, a rebuilt Order of the Temple, known to history as the Knights Templar. According to the shadowtalk, these Templar are able to call upon the services of angels who act to protect themselves and other true believers. It's floated that these are just high-Force Guardian Spirits that take the form that the Templars want them to, but there remains the possibility that they are, in fact, angels of the Lord answering a call to war against those who harm His servants. Of course, the two are not exactly mutually exclusive, since no one knows the whats, whys, and hows of spirit origins.

And to touch on two previous topics real quick:

1.) I'm not seeing the connection to the Void Dragon you're trying to make here.
2.) Ares being involved with Bugs in any way other than "It twitched! Reload, quick!" disturbs me, but I also firmly believe that Ares is one of the good guys. Not one of the best, certainly, but I'll take a tarnished champions over a black knight any day of the week. Knight was a *friend* of Dunkelzahn, and everything D did, whether 4th World or 6th, points to a respect for metahumanity and a hope for its survival.

[X-Kalibur]

Knight is just a means justify the ends kind of guy; like most of the "good" in Shadowrun, it comes with a price attached. (Ps - I still think he's the Echo Mirage team leader)

[Sengir]

As is generally the case with parasitoids, the population would boom, then come into equilibrium. Eating all or even most of the humans would be not only disadvantageous, but impossible.

AFAIK the horros are also parasites in the widest sense, they feed from mankinds' fears and dark emotions. Now that DOES sound like 40k, but more importantly it sounds like even the badass things from outer space need us...as cattle, like the Invae.
Of course we are assuming that the insect spirits act like normal parasites...that hive metaplane does not sound like a major part of it is populated by non-insect hosts.


RE Dunkelzahn: I wouldn't call his view of humanity "respect", more like the attitude people had towards amerinds in the 60s. "They are too dumb to care for themselves, so they need a hard hand to lead them for their own good".

[Stahlseele]

No, the Big D actually WAS the good guy in Shadowrun. All of the time.
Basically, the Dragon was the shining white knight riding around on his really big steed to fight other metaphroical dragons to save us.

Hmm, wonder who would win in an Parasitic War between the invae and the Horrors? O.o

[hermit]

According to the shadowtalk, these Templar are able to call upon the services of angels who act to protect themselves and other true believers. It's floated that these are just high-Force Guardian Spirits that take the form that the Templars want them to, but there remains the possibility that they are, in fact, angels of the Lord answering a call to war against those who harm His servants. Of course, the two are not exactly mutually exclusive, since no one knows the whats, whys, and hows of spirit origins.

Sorry, NO. Those are spirits of man shaped like angels (in murals, in all likelyhood, and not the aerodnamically unviable odd-winged angels of the bible). All other religions get spirits shaped according to their respective beliefs and supersitions. Arabian Muslims get Djinn, NA shamas get animal respective spirits, Aztecs, Hinduist, Daoist ... and Christianity doesn't need to be treated in a special way, IMO. Those angels are angel-like looking spirits, and that's that.

1.) I'm not seeing the connection to the Void Dragon you're trying to make here.

The connection being the VD as the ultimate technology oriented horror.

Ares being involved with Bugs in any way other than "It twitched! Reload, quick!" disturbs me, but I also firmly believe that Ares is one of the good guys.

Why? It is Saeder-Krupp in American. And Knight is a megalomaniac and arrogant in the highest degree. He is Palpatine with better looks and less Force. Lofwyr is the same with scales and equal footing in mystical power, but at least Lofwyr is honest about it. Ares is a darker shade of grey than most megas.

Knight was a *friend* of Dunkelzahn, and everything D did, whether 4th World or 6th, points to a respect for metahumanity and a hope for its survival.

A 'friend' as much as you can be a freind to a creature that is, by nature, solitary. Dragons are not pack oriented, they hence form no deep personal bonds with fellow dragons or other creatures. Dunkelzahn was benevolent. He cared for humans, like many of us care for the environment. He found humanity intriguing. He was, as far as a dragon can be, a decent person.

However, he was not 'a force of good'. His will included more than one instance of fairly petty revenge - one overt and several covert. His will might have cost a four-digit number of peoples' lives. SSorry, but that is not what a force of good is suposed to do. Like pretty much everything in Shadowrun, Dunkelzahn was ambivalent. He was a fairly bright shade of grey, though, I give you that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

AFAIK the horros are also parasites in the widest sense, they feed from mankinds' fears and dark emotions. Now that DOES sound like 40k, but more importantly it sounds like even the badass things from outer space need us...as cattle, like the Invae.

That makes them asmuch a parasite as you are, feeding on - effectively - sun harvested from the biosphere. Or do you have any other way of sustenance? Can you live off Black Smoke or Sunlight, huh? All photo- or chemotrophic creatures are parasites to a degree, if you will. Just, what does this prove? Rien, mon ami.

But yes, in a wider sense the Enemy is kind of like the Chaos Gods. Only, it needs magic to come into the world, not loads and loads of kinky sex.

Horrors feed. Horrors do not depend on a host, though. The Scourge is not a parasitic relationship (with exceptions, like Yrswhatshisface). It is a locust swarm. Invae, however, do not need humanity for cattle either. Effectively, they're bodysnatchers. Less like Aliens, more like the Great Race of Yith.

And no. They do not *need* humanity to feed, either. They can feed on anything that can suffer, even though a lizard suffering probably is not as entertaining to a wraith as humans suffering. Most horrors feed on anything, though. Some even ate mountains. Some really just are feeding machines - most of them are, actually. Only few actually feed on emotions.

[nezumi]

Hermit is right about the horrors. There are exceptions, but overall, they cannot be compared. From what we have seen, the invae require humans for their lifecycle. They may be able to use another species, but humans seem to be the dominant prey. Presumably there's something they can use in their home plane, but we don't know what it is.

Assuming Earth becomes just a suburb of their home plane, then we may have a problem - the source in their native plane supports a population boom, Earth suffers an overabundance of parasitoids, and is picked clean. But given that, from what we have seen, crossing over is difficult and continues to be difficult, this isn't a serious concern.

Because the horrors are not parasitoids but predators - and broad-ranged predators - we are now in trouble. Assuming that only a limited number of horrors got through, and they could ONLY eat humans and our near cousins, and assuming also they are limited by metabolization (i.e. - they can starve) then again, the population will steady. The number of predators compared to prey is limited by their metabolism. If you look at normal, earth predators, endothermic predators make up around 2% of the (animal) biomass. For exotherms, predators are closer to around 10% of the biomass. However, if the horrors can also eat rocks and the air, the calculation changes - our effective biomass is huge, and we humans are but a drop in the bucket. There is nothing preventing us from accidentally being devoured to extinction.

[FrankTrollman]

If you want to get into the thick and sticky of it of who is evil or good or evilest in the Aztechnology, Ares, Dunkelzahn grouping, I suggest you open Augmentation to page 145:

> Chikoaze and Inti Jiwana call the shots now and have since Oliver McClure withdrew from the board. Before that, a fringe group of blood mages linked to the cult was allowed to run roughshod with the project. They collected a lot of data, lost a lot of test subjects, and, when the draconic duo took over, they cleaned house and kept the research data. A few “lucky” experts managed to get out in time, it appears.
> Kay St. Irregular

That's a pretty innocuous comment, isn't it? Time to open the wayback machine and check in on Harlequin's Back, Dunkelzahn's Will, Dragonheart, Aztlan, and of course Cybertechnology. We'll start at the end.

Inti Jiwana and Chikoaze are the Aztlan dragons. They don't talk much, and they don't get much screen time (Inti Jiwana appears in a vision in the Aztlan book), but they did talk to Dunkelzahn. They are also on the Aztlan board. They weren't always the only dragons on the board, either. Which brings us to Oliver McClure - the man whose projects they got to take over when he left the board. Oliver McClure is the man who inherited Dunkelzahn's voting shares in the will - meaning that the project in question was originally Dunkelzahn's to do with as he willed. And during that era it was run by "a fringe group of blood mages." Who are they? Well, that would be the Blood Mage Gestalt, who are the villains in Harlequin's Back. They are the guys doing blood research and actively attempting to build the horror bridge.

But wait... what actually happens is that Dunkelzahn (who bankrolled that project with his Aztechnology board position) gave a load of information on their plans to Harlequin. Then Harlequin got a group of shadowrunners together and whacked the leaders of the Blood Mage Gestalt. At the end of that, Dunkelzahn knew more about the horror bridges than anyone else (somehow), and constructed the dragonheart to put a stop to them.

In short: Aztechnology funded the Blood Mage Gestalt in order to gather information on and (rather successfully) fight the horrors.

Now, let's talk about Dunkelzahn's other friend, Damien Knight.

Aztechnology’s model has since been reverse engineered by several megacorps, though exactly how remains a mystery. Ares Macrotech got a leg up on Azzie cybermantic research somehow—I suspect their acquisition of Cross’s intelligence assets and Info-Santé may factor in to the equation. Mitsuhama went the other way; they assembled an elaborately capable medical team at their Kyoto clinic and then extracted a team of “dissident” cybermantic technicians from Aztechnology during the project’s purges.

> That’s still awfully quick for Ares to reinvent the wheel. Did they receive outside help?
> Nephrine

> Yes.
> Sticks

OK, the "dissident" cybermantic technicians are the remainders of the Blood Mage Gestalt. Those that were not killed off by "The Black Jaguar That Eats the Sun" (which is what Inti Jiwana translates to in Quechua, by the way) apparently went to work for Mitsuhama. It's not known that Mitsuhama is playing any long term game, so whether knowingly or not, Mitsuhama seems to be playing for the "end of the world" team, while Aztechnology is not.

But that's not why we grabbed that quote. We did it because the rest of the quote is shockingly direct for Jackpoint conversation. Ares developed cybermancy that operates on a different principle from Aztech systems, and they did it all at once with their new Ares Medical division. A division which is now headed up by... Theresa Montgomery. Sticks is, of course, a former Ares warrior and a bug hunter. For those of you who want to bring the mechanics into it - cybermancy itself is game mechanically essentially the same as becoming a Flesh Form inhabitation of yourself.

Just, you know, food for thought. None of the corps are all good or all bad. And their plans are so complicated at times that even fairly high ranking members may not know what they are "really" up to.

-Frank