Astral Hazing a FLAW!?, why is astral hazing a flaw? Most Powerful flaw in game? Options

[Stahlseele]

Add in drugs and getting high. Oh wait, make that mundane drugs and getting high. Ultimate Party Pooper - doing Tempo and finding out that your own Astral Hazing cuts out the Tempo's Magic 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

"Da Tempo, ze does nothings..."

Hmm, other question popping up:
FAB III eats magic right?
But people with Astral Hazing don't actually have magic IN THEM.
But Background Count is a concentration of RAW Magic.
How would one affect the other? O.o

[Ol' Scratch]

FAB III is a magical creature with a Force rating. It would affect them just like any other, and since there's nothing there for them to feed on, they'd avoid it like the plague to begin with.

[The Jopp]

You can actually be a pretty good Anti-Magic mage with Astral Hazing with specialization on Counterspelling and Banishing.

Magical oppossition will have problems attacking teh team through magical means.

[Stahlseele]

Well, at least if you can overcome your own background count . .
And this would probably be the best solution to the complete problem too.
The hopefully only magical active member of the group taking this upon himself.
No conflict with anyone else in the group. Now imagine someone taking this for a character for playing dawn of the artifacts for example.
Rating 4 background Count close to Jane Foster and some magical mcguffin. And all of those ghouls go completely blind due to losing astral perception ^^

[The Jopp]

Well, at least if you can overcome your own background count . .

I cannot imagine that counterspelling would have a -4D6 dicepool as it is by it's nature designed to disrupt magic?

And this would probably be the best solution to the complete problem too.
The hopefully only magical active member of the group taking this upon himself.

Still; when it comes to astral hazing i would give awakened characters a "only" limited maximum magic of 2 instead of Magic -4 for starting characters. They become gimped as it is with this quality. That would mean that for magic 2 they would pay 10+25 for magic rating 2 instead of 10+10+10+10+25.

[The Jopp]

And all of those ghouls go completely blind due to losing astral perception ^^

This!

Being a Ghoul hunter with Astral Hazing is damn useful as any Ghoul with less than magic 4 would go blind whenever they get close.

[Dahrken]

I cannot imagine that counterspelling would have a -4D6 dicepool as it is by it's nature designed to disrupt magic?

The trick is that even in the Counterspelling skill itself is unaffected, the background count surrounding you deprive you of 4 Magic points and you need at least 1 Magic left to be able to use the skill, meaning you need to buy it up to 5 (but be able to use only 1) thus turning the whole concept into a rather expensive proposition in term of BP or Karma...

[Faraday]

This!

Being a Ghoul hunter with Astral Hazing is damn useful as any Ghoul with less than magic 4 would go blind whenever they get close.

Unless, y'know, you hit some intelligent and connected ghouls with cybereyes and other enhancements. Then you're probably in for a world of hurt.

[The Jopp]

Unless, y'know, you hit some intelligent and connected ghouls with cybereyes and other enhancements. Then you're probably in for a world of hurt.

Unless you yourself are wired to take care of intelligent Ghouls as well...

Or even more fun, you are a cybered up Ghoul with Astral Hazing who hunts other ghouls for food.

[DireRadiant]

No, casting INTO an area of of background count gives a + in drain as you channel mana into an area that is devoid of it. See rules for background count SR4.

But Indirect Physical spells specifically create the magical construct at the casters location.

Thought experiment. I cast an Indirect Physical Spell, I am outside the hazing. There is a big glass barrier between me and the hazing. The glass barrier is not in the hazing. The spell hits the barrier, does not overcome it and explodes. Do I still get drain affected by the astral hazing? The spell never entered the hazing. I never entered the hazing.Is the mere thought of casting the spell into the area of the hazing what causes the extra drain? I suppose making the mystic link might be the reason, but still.

Consider an Indirect Physical spell that has a large enough area to be targeted at something outside the Hazing and reach into it, what happens then?

[DireRadiant]

There are qualities that have explicit BP costs and an explicit mechanical advantage or disadvantage. These are relatively easy to make value judgments on. Then there are qualities that have BP values that aren't counter balanced by an explicit mechanical number. These require a value judgment based on comparison to th game world at large. This can vary a bit. You can use the BP cost to identify what the relative hindrance that should be applied to the PC taking that quality regardless of the variance in each persons game world view. A X BP quality with a mechanical number should have the same relative cost/benefit as a X BP Quality without a mechanical number to the players in that game world. It's the Gm's job to make that comparison match, however it happens, so that the players feel Qualities of the same levels are relatively equal choices.

[Draco18s]

But Indirect Physical spells specifically create the magical construct at the casters location.

Congratulations, you figured out how to cast a spell into a mana ebb without taking increased drain.

Hint:
Indirect spells do stuff like hitting creatures you can't see, right? So it makes sense that they could "waft" into areas of mana ebb and still work (the effect itself would lose force, but the magician wouldn't take extra drain).

[The Jopp]

Hint:
Indirect spells do stuff like hitting creatures you can't see, right? So it makes sense that they could "waft" into areas of mana ebb and still work (the effect itself would lose force, but the magician wouldn't take extra drain).

Actually, no.

Spells never loose force, only the mage would suffer +4 drain.

This means that indirect combat spells function perfectly against targets within a mana ebb and the mage suffer no additional modifiers.

[DireRadiant]

Congratulations, you figured out how to cast a spell into a mana ebb without taking increased drain.

Hint:
Indirect spells do stuff like hitting creatures you can't see, right? So it makes sense that they could "waft" into areas of mana ebb and still work (the effect itself would lose force, but the magician wouldn't take extra drain).

It's possible. There's no explicit explanation.

One thing to consider is that even Indirect Physical spells still require the Targeting step, which does establish the Mystic link between caster and target. So in that case if the target is in the Hazing, I could see the argument for the caster incurring increased drain.

So it boils down to if it's the manifestation of the spell construct that is the reason the Mage gets drain, or if it's the drawing of the spell towards the target from the caster that causes it. Personally I prefer the concept of the energy of the spell that causes drain rather then the targeting process, so I would choose to have Indirect Physical spells to not incur the Drain modifier for Hazing since the energy to create the spell is done at the caster location.

[Tycho]

Nobody finds it bad to leave a 4 day existing Background Court trail all the time??

cya
Tycho

[BlueMax]

Nobody finds it bad to leave a 4 day existing Background Court trail all the time??

cya
Tycho

This only occurs if she stops moving right?

The TMs in the groups setup a drone medical bot and the hazer was sent on random loops as he slept. I think that was their walk around.

BlueMax

[Jaid]

It's possible. There's no explicit explanation.

One thing to consider is that even Indirect Physical spells still require the Targeting step, which does establish the Mystic link between caster and target. So in that case if the target is in the Hazing, I could see the argument for the caster incurring increased drain.

So it boils down to if it's the manifestation of the spell construct that is the reason the Mage gets drain, or if it's the drawing of the spell towards the target from the caster that causes it. Personally I prefer the concept of the energy of the spell that causes drain rather then the targeting process, so I would choose to have Indirect Physical spells to not incur the Drain modifier for Hazing since the energy to create the spell is done at the caster location.

but the target of the indirect combat spell is not the person or people that are hit by the damage, because you don't have to see them (and you do have to see the target of your spell). it's the <element*> bolt or <element*> ball that are the targets.

* (strictly speaking, indirect combat spells are not explicitly required to have an element. but then, technically speaking, nothing explicitly restricts you from casting an indirect version of the slaughter and slay spells either, and that just seems too silly)

[Stahlseele]

Aside from the little fact that Mana Spells can't be indirect, if i am not mistaken somewhere O.o

[Jaid]

Aside from the little fact that Mana Spells can't be indirect, if i am not mistaken somewhere O.o

i don't believe those spell restrictions are limited to mana spells. after all, you can make a ram (guns) spell, which clearly must be physical, and is restricted target.

*technically* you could come up with a formula for an indirect, non-elemental, restricted target spell. of course, *technically* your GM can just drop a cow on you from orbit at any time, and deliberately trying to abuse 'loopholes' in the system may antagonise your GM slightly... which is probably not a very wise idea.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the RAM and Destroy Spells are still LOS(A) right?
So a Weapon that you can't see won't be affected at all.

[Stahlseele]

stupid doubleposting. IGNORE ME HERE!

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Whoa, wait. Stop right there. Fiber optics allow you to cast spells and grant counterspelling through an extended line of physical sight. It does not, in any way, extend your ability to assense.

Actually, you're probably right about that. Forget I mentioned the fiber optic cabling.

In the case of the thunder ball out of the overpass drain thing, me and my GM weren't thinking about where the drain came from or what caused the force drain effect of spells, we just knew that background count affected spells being cast into it, and that background count increased the drain of spells it affected. But maybe Indirect spells do work differently. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to anything that gives them an edge over direct spells. I would like to point out, however, that Indirect Combat spells are in fact made of mana, and so should be affected by the force drain of a background count, if perhaps not the drain increase when cast from outside the radius of the background count.

[Falconer]

*sigh*...

Firstly... yes the quality is badly broken... magical groups everywhere should give all creatures w/ it the effective 'hunted' quality as they pay a bounty for every astral hazing freak to be shot down like rabid dogs. The problem is it's a huge positive for the player, and only if the GM goes out of it's way to make it a negative can it ever be a negative.

Personally, I'm a big fan of... if you take surged... you pick the good stuff, but the GM picks the negative qualities as he sees fit.


Now background counts....

Case 1: Mage OUTSIDE casts direct (or indirect) force 6 combat spell into a BGC4 onto a valid target(s) inside and outside the BGC. (manaball)
Calculate drain and dicepool as normal. The spell will have it's effective force reduced by 4 inside the BGC. It's force 6 outside, but the AOE inside the BGC is effectively force 2. For a single target spell, it wouldn't matter the drain and dice pool would be exactly the same if you calculated the drain as (force2+BGC4), or as (force6) then reduced the effect by the BGC afterwards, but for an AOE spell you need to do it after to handle mixed targets inside/outside the area.

Case 2: Mage INSIDE casts direct (or indirect) Force 2 at another target inside the BGC4.
BGC reduces magic by 4.. to 2. (-4 dice, and changing casting/overcasting limits).
Effecitvely...
1: the effect is almost the same... Drain == (Force + BGC)/2+draincode. Exactly the same as if he cast it outside!!... 2. The magician takes a -4 dice penalty from the loss of magic.
EG: an alternate view, effectively the mage is casting at his full magic rating of force 6 w/o overcasting, reduced immediately by the BGC, w/ a -dice penalty equal to the BGC. Though his overcasting limit is still only 2*(6-4)==4... not (6*2)-4==8.

Casting out of a BGC... IIRC the force isn't restored... it was cast at force 2. (magic6 -> Magic2 temporarily)

However if you sustain a spell, walk into the BGC... it has it's force temporarily reduced... but it restores when it walks back out. (note force limits hits... but BGC are a temporary reduction in force, not hits... so it's a grey area for the GM whether the hits on the spell are retained or lost, though the book makes it clear that anchored spells/wards/etc. restore themselves after leaving the area even if reduced to 0). I take this to mean that if you had say a force 3 spell inside a force 5 sustaining focus... entered... the spell would be suppressed while there, but since the focus hasn't deactivated... it will restore itself upon leaving. (hits on spellcasting test don't change... only force of the spell... force doesn't change hits, only limits how many of them you can use).

Something a lot of people don't realize... aspecting doesn't change the magic attribute!!! It only provides bonus situational modifier dice similar to a power focus. Though unlike a power focus aspecting also adds dice to drain tests as well. Aspecting doesn't change your casting limits, only makes them more effective by giving you more dice to more easily reach those limits.

[SpellBinder]

FAB III is a magical creature with a Force rating. It would affect them just like any other, and since there's nothing there for them to feed on, they'd avoid it like the plague to begin with.

Since an Astral Hazing character is a domain in his/her own right, and a Rating 4 background count is a domain (not a Rating -4 background count, an ebb), wouldn't that mean that there's an excess pooling of mana around the Hazer in [essence] meters for a creature that feeds on mana?

[Ol' Scratch]

No?

If for no other reason than it could never give birth to another one, since it would die instantly. And only the most powerful ones (they can only reach Force 6 before splitting) would be able to approach to begin with, instantly dropping to Force 1 or 2.