Astral Hazing a FLAW!?, why is astral hazing a flaw? Most Powerful flaw in game? Options

[Ol' Scratch]

It's a good thing I wasn't talking to Rotbart, huh? Also, considering it was Tymeaus who decided to delve into it for whatever bizarre reason, thanks for reinforcing my point for me. Here's a quick flowchart of events.

1: Rotbart brings up that Magic Resistance has its negatives, too, and states that it prevents you from benefiting from Heal at all.
2. Funkenstein points out that isn't completely correct and that Magic Resistance simply interferes with Heal and only prevents voluntary spells from functioning.
3. Rotbart acknowledges the minor mistake about not being able to benefit from Heal and the exchange is concluded.
4. Later, Tymeaus shows up and tries to tell Rotbart that he didn't really make a mistake, pointing out what was already stated.
5. Funkenstein reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from the spell at all. See point #1.
6. Tymeaus repeats what he just said.
7. Funkenstein once again reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from Heal at all.
8. Tymeaus turns everything into a personal attack and starts yelling about how he never said that Magic Resistance prevented you from being Healed and, omg, the world revolves around him.
9. Funkenstein gets grumpy and points out that no one was talking about him and his already nullified argument from what is now long, long ago.
10. Dracos shows up and somehow tries to make it look like Funkenstein has no idea what's going on.
11. Funkenstein sighs and types up a quick flow chart of events, despite knowing people will still be too dense to comprehend these events even after half-reading it.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, let's see if I can make everyone agree on the same topic.
Someone casts a healing spell at subjects A and B, subject A has magic resistance 4 and B doesn't.

Subject A will resist the spell (even if he didn't want to resist) throwing 4 dice or 4 dice + body/will?
And subject B will not resist, right?

At least, this is what I understood, and if I'm wrong, please forgive me for not being so bright.

I think I've seen 3 different people saying the same thing and one of them doesn't agree with the other 2.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a good thing I wasn't talking to Rotbart, huh? Also, considering it was Tymeaus who decided to delve into it for whatever bizarre reason, thanks for reinforcing my point for me.

Not too bizarre of a reason actually...
It was done to point out that he was not actually working under a total misconception...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

That's exactly it, Shinobi. And Astral Hazing works completely differently, lowering the Force (and thus the benefit and, I believe, allowed net hits) of the spell by 4.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, let's see if I can make everyone agree on the same topic.
Someone casts a healing spell at subjects A and B, subject A has magic resistance 4 and B doesn't.

Subject A will resist the spell (even if he didn't want to resist) throwing 4 dice or 4 dice + body/will?
And subject B will not resist, right?

At least, this is what I understood, and if I'm wrong, please forgive me for not being so bright.

I think I've seen 3 different people saying the same thing and one of them doesn't agree with the other 2.

From what you have above, It Looks right to me Brazillian_Shinobi...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a good thing I wasn't talking to Rotbart, huh? Also, considering it was Tymeaus who decided to delve into it for whatever bizarre reason, thanks for reinforcing my point for me. Here's a quick flowchart of events.

1: Rotbart brings up that Magic Resistance has its negatives, too, and states that it prevents you from benefiting from Heal at all.
2. Funkenstein points out that isn't completely correct and that Magic Resistance simply interferes with Heal and only prevents voluntary spells from functioning.
3. Rotbart acknowledges the minor mistake about not being able to benefit from Heal and the exchange is concluded.
4. Later, Tymeaus shows up and tries to tell Rotbart that he didn't really make a mistake, pointing out what was already stated.
5. Funkenstein reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from the spell at all. See point #1.
6. Tymeaus repeats what he just said.
7. Funkenstein once again reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from Heal at all.
8. Tymeaus turns everything into a personal attack and starts yelling about how he never said that Magic Resistance prevented you from being Healed and, omg, the world revolves around him.
9. Funkenstein gets grumpy and points out that no one was talking about him and his already nullified argument from what is now long, long ago.
10. Dracos shows up and somehow tries to make it look like Funkenstein has no idea what's going on.
11. Funkenstein sighs and types up a quick flow chart of events, despite knowing people will still be too dense to comprehend these events even after half-reading it.

Which just goes to prove that you are still a monumental ass when you want to be... And yes, I know, You are the one that is oh so put upon in the exchange... well, that is okay, it will pass eventually...

Oh Yeah... That is right, Solution 1 and Solution 2... I remember... Got it...

Keep the Faith

[Shinobi Killfist]

You're free to think whatever you like, but that doesn't make you correct. If you can't grasp the full extent of the negatives associated with astral hazing, even after many of them have been brought up in the course of this thread, then so be it. There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has. Especially, you know, if you are/have a GM who actually has the balls to step in and do his job.

And You're free to think whatever you like, but that doesn't make you correct. If you can't grasp the full extent of the positives associated with astral hazing then so be it. There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has.

Look you want to disagree on which is bigger the negatives or the positives good for you. It isn't something you can prove and it snot something I can prove. You being rude just makes you an ass.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

And You're free to think whatever you like, but that doesn't make you correct. If you can't grasp the full extent of the positives associated with astral hazing then so be it. There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has.

Look you want to disagree on which is bigger the negatives or the positives good for you. It isn't something you can prove and it snot something I can prove. You being rude just makes you an ass.

Well, each of your ideas about the positives an negatives of Astral Hazing aside, whoever wrote the changeling rules obviously thought the negatives outweighed the positives enough to make it a 5 point negative quality.

I don't actually much like Astral Hazing as a whole. Its positive benefits tend to outright punk most offensive magic and its negative aspects tend to royally screw over the Hazed character. It doesn't really seem to bring that much to the game when used by a character, not in terms of uniqueness or fun. I don't think I'll allow it at all in any game I run. I don't like such an extreme example of positives and negatives in a single quality.

[Ol' Scratch]

There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has.

Considering that any positives are equated (and arguably outclassed) by the negatives, no, you are wrong. For every Stunbolt you reduce by 4 points of Force, you have a Heal being reduced by 4 points of Force. Just like with Magic Resistance, except with the difference that MR only grants some extra resistance dice (of which you can still potentially benefit even from most Force 1 beneficial spells, just with fewer hits). Unlike Magic Resistance, however, you impact the capabilities of your allies unless you also happen to have an Essence of 0 (which has its own negatives associated with it; a single successful attack by an Essence Draining creature = bye bye to you), and even then you still do if you hang around an area for a couple of hours. Magic Resistance doesn't set off wards and other magical alarms. Magic Resistance doesn't turn your aura into a beacon of "kill this guy first." Magic Resistance doesn't require you to be a Changeling. Magic Resistance doesn't destroy the environment and attract all kinds of nasty astral beasties to investigate and possibly even intervene. Magic Resistance doesn't include anywhere near the other many notable hindrances that Astral Hazing does. Unless you, as a GM, decide to ignore it. As multiple people -- not just myself -- have pointed out numerous times. And when you do, you really do only have yourself to blame. And this is true of all qualities, good and bad.

Again: It's identical to the problems of In Debt. If you ignore the implications of it, bam, you get 30 free Build Points and 30,000 nuyen at character creation. Woohoo! Oh, but what's that, there's negatives associated with it? Who cares? We're going to ignore it so we can rant and rave about how unbalanced In Debt is for giving you those 30 BP and 30k nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Look you want to disagree on which is bigger the negatives or the positives good for you. It isn't something you can prove and [it's not] something I can prove.

Except it is. See above for an example.

You being rude just makes you an ass.

People always assume I'm rude even when they're the ones being rude. Case in point: Have I ever called you an ass? No? You certainly don't seem to have an trouble throwing names around, though.

Being loud, opinionated, and blunt doesn't mean someone is attacking you. But thin-skinned people sure seem to take it that way around here. See Solution #2 below. And please take advantage of Solution #1 while you're at it if it's such a problem.

[toturi]

How does someone know that another person has Astral Hazing? How does a mage (or anyone) know that the Background Count he is walking into is due to the person with Astral Hazing and not due to something else?

I think a mage would probably use Assensing. In a crowd, how does the mage know that it is that guy with the Astral Hazing? With the necessary hits on the test, the mage probably can tell that it is that guy. But lacking those hits, is it obvious who it is?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

How does someone know that another person has Astral Hazing? How does a mage (or anyone) know that the Background Count he is walking into is due to the person with Astral Hazing and not due to something else?

I think a mage would probably use Assensing. In a crowd, how does the mage know that it is that guy with the Astral Hazing? With the necessary hits on the test, the mage probably can tell that it is that guy. But lacking those hits, is it obvious who it is?

In a crowd, maybe not so much, but you have to realize that Astral Hazing is basically a cloud of evil energy surrounding the character. Nothing else produces an effect like that besides cyberzombies. Normal background count infuses an area, but Astral Hazing is an extremely powerful background count centered on a single individual. You might have to switch between Astral and normal vision to tell exactly who is producing the effect considering that a Background count gives a penalty to Astral Perception equal to its rating (so -4 for Astral Hazing) but figuring out where the evil cloud of energy is coming from would be rather easy.

[toturi]

In a crowd, maybe not so much, but you have to realize that Astral Hazing is basically a cloud of evil energy surrounding the character. Nothing else produces an effect like that besides cyberzombies. Normal background count infuses an area, but Astral Hazing is an extremely powerful background count centered on a single individual. You might have to switch between Astral and normal vision to tell exactly who is producing the effect considering that a Background count gives a penalty to Astral Perception equal to its rating (so -4 for Astral Hazing) but figuring out where the evil cloud of energy is coming from would be rather easy.

Mechanically we know that it is a Background Count centered on a single individual.

But how does someone tell the difference between a Astral Hazing BC and a "normal" BC? Can a character actually tell that it is really a cloud of evil energy coming from a single source without making the Assensing hits? Can a character tell the extent of that Background Count (without the hits) and extrapolate that it is from a single source since it is going to be a circle around some person?

[DireRadiant]

That moving BC that always moves with a certain individual?

[Ol' Scratch]

Considering how small the background count is compared to most (only a few meters at most), it wouldn't be hard at all to pinpoint who it was and what a strange oddity it was that it was moving.

[Draco18s]

Being loud, opinionated, and blunt doesn't mean someone is attacking you. But thin-skinned people sure seem to take it that way around here. See Solution #2 below. And please take advantage of Solution #1 while you're at it if it's such a problem.

Ooh, I like solution #2!

And I might start using #1 if I can ever remember who it is that consistently doesn't show an ounce of brains and resorts to flaming rather than debate.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Mechanically we know that it is a Background Count centered on a single individual.

But how does someone tell the difference between a Astral Hazing BC and a "normal" BC? Can a character actually tell that it is really a cloud of evil energy coming from a single source without making the Assensing hits? Can a character tell the extent of that Background Count (without the hits) and extrapolate that it is from a single source since it is going to be a circle around some person?

You wouldn't be able to tell the exact background count rating, but considering that a background count has a noted visual effect (the penalty to perception tests) it should be apparent on the Astral Plane without requiring an assessnsing test, because things that are obvious on the Astral Plane don't require a test to see. As for its difference from a normal background count, normal background counts don't move and aren't generally centered on one person. It would be like the difference between a fog in a city and a cloud that followed a person around everywhere. There might be some difficulty in determining that there was a person in the middle of that fog, but with a little observation you could certainly figure it out. Its description would go something like this- "You see a distortion when you perceive the Astral Plane. Your mage experience tells you that it's a background count, but it's a 2 meter wide dome and moving. If you have high enough assensing you might be able to spot a living aura at its center. When you turn off your Astral vision you see a man standing where the cloud exists on the Astral. If you switch between Astral Vision and normal vision you can see that wherever the man goes, the cloud follows." If the person was in a crowd it'd be difficult to tell exactly who was producing the background count but Astral Hazing acts so much differently and tends to be so much smaller than a normal background count that it shouldn't be hard for a player to figure out what it is from a simple description.

[toturi]

You wouldn't be able to tell the exact background count rating, but considering that a background count has a noted visual effect (the penalty to perception tests) it should be apparent on the Astral Plane without requiring an assessnsing test, because things that are obvious on the Astral Plane don't require a test to see. As for its difference from a normal background count, normal background counts don't move and aren't generally centered on one person. It would be like the difference between a fog in a city and a cloud that followed a person around everywhere. There might be some difficulty in determining that there was a person in the middle of that fog, but with a little observation you could certainly figure it out. Its description would go something like this- "You see a distortion when you perceive the Astral Plane. Your mage experience tells you that it's a background count, but it's a 2 meter wide dome and moving. If you have high enough assensing you might be able to spot a living aura at its center. When you turn off your Astral vision you see a man standing where the cloud exists on the Astral. If you switch between Astral Vision and normal vision you can see that wherever the man goes, the cloud follows." If the person was in a crowd it'd be difficult to tell exactly who was producing the background count but Astral Hazing acts so much differently and tends to be so much smaller than a normal background count that it shouldn't be hard for a player to figure out what it is from a simple description.

Even (especially!) considering that a Background Count(even a Rating 4 one that Astral Hazing produces) has an effect on Assensing, I do not think its extent should be one of those things that are immediately obvious.

"You feel a disturbance on the astral plane. You think it is some kind of background count and there is an aura/there are auras(if a crowd) in the area of background count." - This description is without an Assensing roll, the background count causing a distortion and the aura of the guy (since the guy isn't hiding) should be immediately noticeable.

If you roll high enough on the Assensing test, you get a more accurate description on its strength and area of effect. If you roll high enough you will Assense that the person in the center is actually the cause of that Background Count.

For example for 1 or 2 hits on the test, "You think that the Background Count is fairly strong, certainly stronger than the crime scene usual but less than a mana warp. You get the impression that the Background Count covers a fairly small/large area/the room/the corridor/etc. The area of Background Count seems to fluctuate, you get the feeling that it is not stationary."

Your description of a 2m dome is more appropriate to 4+ hits, I feel.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Even (especially!) considering that a Background Count(even a Rating 4 one that Astral Hazing produces) has an effect on Assensing, I do not think its extent should be one of those things that are immediately obvious.

"You feel a disturbance on the astral plane. You think it is some kind of background count and there is an aura/there are auras(if a crowd) in the area of background count." - This description is without an Assensing roll, the background count causing a distortion and the aura of the guy (since the guy isn't hiding) should be immediately noticeable.

If you roll high enough on the Assensing test, you get a more accurate description on its strength and area of effect. If you roll high enough you will Assense that the person in the center is actually the cause of that Background Count.

For example for 1 or 2 hits on the test, "You think that the Background Count is fairly strong, certainly stronger than the crime scene usual but less than a mana warp. You get the impression that the Background Count covers a fairly small/large area/the room/the corridor/etc. The area of Background Count seems to fluctuate, you get the feeling that it is not stationary."

Your description of a 2m dome is more appropriate to 4+ hits, I feel.

Would you require a character to make a test to estimate the area affected by a smoke grenade? If the smoke grenade covered a diameter that was 6 feet in length? That's a physical example of something that provides -4 to perception checks. Honestly, the distortion is so severe and covers such a small area that it really should be immediately apparent to anyone just glancing on the astral plane. Maybe it doesn't look like smoke, but if it really does look like a heat distortion it's severe enough to make whatever you see through it look like something reflected in a fun house mirror.

[toturi]

Would you require a character to make a test to estimate the area affected by a smoke grenade? If the smoke grenade covered a diameter that was 6 feet in length? That's a physical example of something that provides -4 to perception checks. Honestly, the distortion is so severe and covers such a small area that it really should be immediately apparent to anyone just glancing on the astral plane. Maybe it doesn't look like smoke, but if it really does look like a heat distortion it's severe enough to make whatever you see through it look like something reflected in a fun house mirror.

Yes, I would. The smoke cloud is there, that part is immediately noticeable. I may even tell the player that it is a small or large cloud, but estimating accurately how big the cloud is would require a roll.

I have been trying to find some rules or guidelines on how to describe Background Count. As far as I can find, there is no specific rules for it. You may be right, an astral perceiving character can immediately tell how dense it is and how large it is. Right now, all I have is a semi-relevant statement that domains are made up of bright eddies and swirling pools of mana that are easily recognisable. If there is something in Digital Grimoire that touches on this, I'd be much obliged if you can share the relevant rules.

[Harbin]

You sense an area where ALL COLOR AND LIFE IS BEING DRAINED OUT OF. It is clearly a PERVERSION OF ASTRAL SPACE THAT YOU SHOULD NOT STEP INTO.

It is also moving. Toward you.


Sorry, had to say it. Wasn't an argument just me seeing some humor in it.

[DireRadiant]

Magic and Summoning pool of 4 and I can send watchers all day at the rate of one a complex action and use them as my BC measuring device.

It's wherever my watchers keep popping out of existence.

[Blade]

If a ward disappears because of the BC, will the creator be warned just like he is when a ward is attacked by a mage?

[Machiavelli]

I think so. The mage recognizes that the barrier is gone, i don´t think that it is important because of what reason it crashed.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Considering that any positives are equated (and arguably outclassed) by the negatives, no, you are wrong. For every Stunbolt you reduce by 4 points of Force, you have a Heal being reduced by 4 points of Force. Just like with Magic Resistance, except with the difference that MR only grants some extra resistance dice (of which you can still potentially benefit even from most Force 1 beneficial spells, just with fewer hits). Unlike Magic Resistance, however, you impact the capabilities of your allies unless you also happen to have an Essence of 0 (which has its own negatives associated with it; a single successful attack by an Essence Draining creature = bye bye to you), and even then you still do if you hang around an area for a couple of hours. Magic Resistance doesn't set off wards and other magical alarms. Magic Resistance doesn't turn your aura into a beacon of "kill this guy first." Magic Resistance doesn't require you to be a Changeling. Magic Resistance doesn't destroy the environment and attract all kinds of nasty astral beasties to investigate and possibly even intervene. Magic Resistance doesn't include anywhere near the other many notable hindrances that Astral Hazing does. Unless you, as a GM, decide to ignore it. As multiple people -- not just myself -- have pointed out numerous times. And when you do, you really do only have yourself to blame. And this is true of all qualities, good and bad.

Yes I have read all the negatives and if I allowed it in the game I'd use them all. But totally shutting down offensive magic is still better. The thing is these things can't be judged in a vacuum, for example, "you impact the capabilities of your allies unless you also happen to have an Essence of 0". Well who the else is going to take it, you aren't taking this as a mage, it is virtually a big neon sign saying if you are a combat monster take this. They will need heals a hell of a lot less often because now there one weakness is not just reduced but basically gone, heck they are more resistant to magic than they are to physical damage. This will only set off wards of less than force 4, but yes it sets off alarms and wards, but since you are aware of it it can be used to your advantage almost as often as it hurts you. It gives a beacon of kill this guy first to who? The people who can't really hurt him? The penalty is all the people who I'm virtually invulnerable to hate me, that ins't that big of a hit. Don't get me wrong corp sec mage can say shoot that dude fast, he is bad mojo so it will come up but so be it. Yes it attracts beasties etc. Yes that is a bigger flaw than magic resistance, but being a permanent anti magic shell is more powerful than all of that combined.

Again: It's identical to the problems of In Debt. If you ignore the implications of it, bam, you get 30 free Build Points and 30,000 nuyen at character creation. Woohoo! Oh, but what's that, there's negatives associated with it? Who cares? We're going to ignore it so we can rant and rave about how unbalanced In Debt is for giving you those 30 BP and 30k nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Except again it gives larger benefits than all the negatives combined. It would be like if in debt said you have to pay back 4,000 every month but you get handed 10,000 every month from the tooth fairy. Yeah it has a flaw but the positive is bigger than the negative.

People always assume I'm rude even when they're the ones being rude. Case in point: Have I ever called you an ass? No? You certainly don't seem to have an trouble throwing names around, though.

Being loud, opinionated, and blunt doesn't mean someone is attacking you. But thin-skinned people sure seem to take it that way around here. See Solution #2 below. And please take advantage of Solution #1 while you're at it if it's such a problem.

No you are just rude.
When you say things like "If you can't grasp the full extent of the negatives associated with astral hazing, even after many of them have been brought up in the course of this thread, then so be it." That is you just being a rude asshole. You are not trying to discuss things, you aren't just loud and opinionated, you are insulting someones intelligence because you disagree with them. People can fully grasp what has been said in a thread and still come to a different conclusion.

[darthmord]

I don't know... a -4 Magic to all of your magically active buddies' powers would be a significant negative. Sure it helps with incoming offensive magic but honestly, the stuff that Magic can do FOR you is pretty useful. -4 to that is harsh.

Harsh enough that none of my players wanted to deal with it... especially after I giggled like a madman when one player asked about it while reading Runner's Companion.