totems/mentor spirits 'infesting', True form, hybrid form and flesh form non-insect spirits Options

[Drace]

I was wondering. I know generally it is the rule that all bug totems (mentor spirits I guess in sr4) are the ones who create flesh form, true form and hybrid spirits and the like out of their followers and those they can 'infect'. But I was wondering about other totems/mentor spirits? I know that both Scorpion and Spider (Both arachnids, but not bug totems, so that may be why) can turn their followers into flesh forms, but what about the other totems/mentor spirits?

I was curious because after re-reading into the shadows and wolf and raven awhile back it made me think of a true form wolf spirit, and was curious if there was any blurbs, comments or anything in any source material I can't seem to find or in the minds of the people here concerning if it is possible for the totems to create them.

[Jaid]

i wouldn't say it's necessarily a matter of totems, per se. some spirits inhabit, others don't. for example, you can be a spider shaman and not create flesh forms (in fact, odds are good your GM wouldn't let you have inhabitation spirits as your default).

but sure, just about any tradition *could* theoretically have inhabitation spirits. certainly, if you include spirit allies, every tradition can.

[Stahlseele]

Just curious here but . . doing that to other people, would that not be on the twisted path?
Blood Magic or something like that?
And with free spirits, everything is possible.

[Jaid]

Just curious here but . . doing that to other people, would that not be on the twisted path?
Blood Magic or something like that?
And with free spirits, everything is possible.

doing it to other people, most likely. once may or may not be enough to send you down the path permanently, but consistently doing it is likely to cause you to shift into the twisted path.

however, you *can* do it to other things also (like an untrained hellhound that is much cheaper than a trained hellhound, or a hellhound corpse, or even just a dog, or some other animal, or for that matter even a homunculus.)

[Stahlseele]

Hmm . . True Form Merge with a humunculous . . that's suddenly slobbering and panting like a dog *snickers*

[Tanegar]

How's this for nightmare fuel: flesh-form Spider spirit inhabiting a pixie. Tiny enough to hide anywhere, can fly, spin webs, and inject flesh-liquefying venom.

[Saint Sithney]

I don't really see how capturing a known enemy and using inhabitation on them is particularly more messed up than just murdering them.
They could even add their Binding skill to the target's check so that they end up with a flesh form version. Then it's like the enemy gets to live on as a new and improved ally.

Ok, so it's twisted... but in the grand scheme of twisted, it's probably only as creepy as a Manipulation specialist. You know that whole "it's only a matter of time before he starts trying this on the other players" thing..

[Harbin]

How would a mantis spirit using mage work out? Chasing bugs down constantly with the aid of mantis spirits and such, would it work out (in a rudimentary sense) or just get the girl killed instantly? More of a slippery slope character who starts out with good intentions but slides down, maybe managing to stop halfway- or perhaps becoming a flesh form herself.

[The_Vanguard]

I was wondering. I know generally it is the rule that all bug totems (mentor spirits I guess in sr4) are the ones who create flesh form, true form and hybrid spirits and the like out of their followers and those they can 'infect'. But I was wondering about other totems/mentor spirits? I know that both Scorpion and Spider (Both arachnids, but not bug totems, so that may be why) can turn their followers into flesh forms, but what about the other totems/mentor spirits?

I was curious because after re-reading into the shadows and wolf and raven awhile back it made me think of a true form wolf spirit, and was curious if there was any blurbs, comments or anything in any source material I can't seem to find or in the minds of the people here concerning if it is possible for the totems to create them.

I don't think that this has come up in canon yet. If your wolf spirit comes from a Native American background I'd say that a normal spirit with manifestation (maybe with the realistic form power) would fit the bill better. What exactly is your true form wolf spirit supposed to accomplish?

Additionally, I think that black mages and petro voudoun sorcerers that summon inhabitation spirits are conceivable. They would turn people into twisted murderous abominations or devour their soul and replace it with demonic entities.

[LurkerOutThere]

Well it is canononical. He's refering at least to Wolfgang Keiss the title character from Wolf and Raven.

If memory serves Stackpole was given a hint of how a shifter works when setting out to write the book but some of the material on shifters changed when you write it so Wolf behaves in most respects like a physical adept totemic shifter, with the key caveats that he was born human (and his perceptions are colored as such) and his "Wolf" side is treated very much like a very personal relation with his totem or another entity in his skull. Sometimes the relationship is very cordial, sometimes it's not. Personal I've always felt it as one of the best writeups on shifters every done even if it doesn't strictly agree with how they are now. I believe the OP is working to try and find a place for Wolf mechanically.

[The_Vanguard]

Sorry, haven't read that book. Are we talking about a spirit or a shape shifter here? Could it be a possession spirit with a willing host? Is there a possibility that Wolfgang is just simply nuts?

[Method]

How's this for nightmare fuel: flesh-form Spider spirit inhabiting a pixie. Tiny enough to hide anywhere, can fly, spin webs, and inject flesh-liquefying venom.

Now that is a creepy image. I'm picturing Disney's Tinkerbell in a gothy black dress with arachnid legs...

[Harbin]

Now just change the face to something like a predator.

[LurkerOutThere]

Sorry, haven't read that book. Are we talking about a spirit or a shape shifter here? Could it be a possession spirit with a willing host? Is there a possibility that Wolfgang is just simply nuts?

It's been more then a few years since i've read it as well although I would reocmmend it to folks (although I have always been a bit of a Stackpole fanboy) As such my answers to the best of my recollection are:

In order:
1.Maybe? He behaves like either a shapeshifter adept or a totemic adept with a particularly strong shamanic mask.
2. Again maybe although Keiss is shown to mentally struggle with and suppress his Wolf side most of the time (although on a few times it overrides him) This expanation actually makes the most amount of sense to me in light of the current rules system and metarules but the relationship is a bit more complex then the standard, spirit running the host body arrangement.
3. Always a possibility especially with shadowrunners although it seems somewhat unlikely. Much of the book is delivered for Wolfgang's perspective and he is a rational, thinking, individual, who other then the extra resident in his mind displays no other symptoms (discounting the above shadowrunning profession) of mental instability.

[The_Vanguard]

This wouldn't work with inhabitation spirits because they completely consume the host's mind (pg. 100 Street Magic). The "two minds/one body" thing would only be able with a free possession type spirit. The entry on pg. 102 SM (sidebar) even mentions that this may cause effects similar to a shamanic mask.
If you'd want the change to be more than cosmetic you could give it a limited shapechange spell (all free spirits automatically possess the Magician quality) or the mutable form power with some GM fiat.

[darthmord]

This wouldn't work with inhabitation spirits because they completely consume the host's mind (pg. 100 Street Magic). The "two minds/one body" thing would only be able with a free possession type spirit. The entry on pg. 102 SM (sidebar) even mentions that this may cause effects similar to a shamanic mask.
If you'd want the change to be more than cosmetic you could give it a limited shapechange spell (all free spirits automatically possess the Magician quality) or the mutable form power with some GM fiat.

Perhaps something went awry during the merge and the host's original mind is still present despite being Inhabited by a spirit?

Magic sometimes does strange things or works in ways that were not expected.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the spirit in this case was unable to really control it'S hosts body, even if and especially if the host was knocked unconscious.
Only when the host really allowed the spirit to go from true form to something like merge or so did the host lean back and let the warrior spirit drive.
And then there was still a modicum of control for the host i think. Such as spitting out piggy blood/machine-oil from cybered orks the body hat bitten.
Or quipping cool and evil one-liners.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's been more then a few years since i've read it as well although I would reocmmend it to folks (although I have always been a bit of a Stackpole fanboy) As such my answers to the best of my recollection are:

In order:
1.Maybe? He behaves like either a shapeshifter adept or a totemic adept with a particularly strong shamanic mask.
2. Again maybe although Keiss is shown to mentally struggle with and suppress his Wolf side most of the time (although on a few times it overrides him) This expanation actually makes the most amount of sense to me in light of the current rules system and metarules but the relationship is a bit more complex then the standard, spirit running the host body arrangement.
3. Always a possibility especially with shadowrunners although it seems somewhat unlikely. Much of the book is delivered for Wolfgang's perspective and he is a rational, thinking, individual, who other then the extra resident in his mind displays no other symptoms (discounting the above shadowrunning profession) of mental instability.

Yeah, I have always like Wolfgang Keiss...
I always saw him as a Mystic Adept of Wolf (The Mentor) who has a Mentor's geas (may only summon Spirits of the Mentor's Category) that affects his abilities... and was capable of having "Wolf" possess him for additional power, so a Possession Shamanic Tradition that only allows spirits of Beast, Specifically Wolf Spirits (The Geas, remember)... Though I could also see some form of shapsshifter influence if that was the direction you wanted to take it (though you would have to allow Human as Base form rather than Wolf, as previously mentioned)...

Keep the Faith

[The_Vanguard]

Magic sometimes does strange things or works in ways that were not expected.

Sure, everything is possible in narration. Its just my impression that the OP is looking for RAW solutions, so that's where I'm coming from.

Well, the spirit in this case was unable to really control it'S hosts body, even if and especially if the host was knocked unconscious.
Only when the host really allowed the spirit to go from true form to something like merge or so did the host lean back and let the warrior spirit drive.
And then there was still a modicum of control for the host i think. Such as spitting out piggy blood/machine-oil from cybered orks the body hat bitten.
Or quipping cool and evil one-liners.

The forms that result from inhabitation are not interchangeable. If you get a true form spirit the host body is destroyed and the spirit can only manifest with its normal appearance. Likewise, a flesh form cannot switch into a hybrid form and back again at will - the inhabitation process determines the permanent physique of the spirit.

But Wolfgang actually has to allow the spirit to take his body over and it can't do jack when he is unconscius? This sounds like your standard run-of-the-mill possession type spirit summoner who needs to expend services to get things done. Possession automatically gives him Immunity to Normal Weapons and the spirit's rating as a boost to all physical attributes, so coupled with a shamanic mask that's all you really need for a pseudo shape shifter. With the Channeling metamagic he even gets to quip one-liners without problem.

Now, I'm not sure if I get that right, but is he actually accompanied by a physical (manifested) wolf-spirit that can fuse with him? In that case it would have to be a free spirit that Wolfgang now controls through its true name, so that it may a) have both the possession and materialisation (and maybe realistic form) powers and b) so that Wolfgang can control and bind it to him.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the stories are written from his very own perspective.
At one point, he describes the sound of his skull and jaw, his face, breaking. To accomodate the snout of a wolf.
A not too joyous experience, if kies fights it to stay in control.
I may have the whole flesh/true/hybrid forms mixed up a bit.
never been too big on the magic stuff myself. I like technology better.
Well, the wolf can not move the body, if kies is unconscious.
But if kies falls asleep while watching old star trek reruns, the wolf will tell him that he can get him up to warp speed, if kies thinks something is fast as light.
And if kies is WEAKENED but still conscious, the wolf will simply take him over and transform him. to save him of course. And because the human body lacks certain natural weapons wolf likes and needs to use. his strength, his speed, his senses, his claws, his teeth. but the wolf likes the oposable thumb and the things you can do with hands. so he usually leaves the hands mostly like they are, aside from adding claws.
If kies relents all control because he WANTS the wolf to kill and maim, then he gets to take a back-seat and watch it all like it is on TV or something.
No pain of your own bones and joints breaking and bending in the wrong direction to accomodate the mind of the wolf.
It's certainly the best werewolf i have read up untill now. Try and read the book(s) if you can.

[The_Vanguard]

Indeed, I think I'm beginning to understand why people like the character so much. Thanks for your insight, I guess I really have to track the book down.

And on a second thought, let's forget about the free spirit. A customised ally spirit could do all that and be even more personally attached to the guy.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, a Beast Great Form Ally Spirit. This sounds very promising to me. Maybe using a kind of variant of the Bone-Cage from Ancient History Fame ^^
As for the Book?
GO READ IT! NOW!
EVEN SOONER IF POSSIBLE!

[Oehler the Black]

Yeah, a Beast Great Form Ally Spirit. This sounds very promising to me. Maybe using a kind of variant of the Bone-Cage from Ancient History Fame ^^
As for the Book?
GO READ IT! NOW!
EVEN SOONER IF POSSIBLE!

Wait...you can use Invoking on Ally Spirits!?@ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
If this is true I need to rethink my mage's future metamagic choices.

[Stahlseele]

No, you probably can't.
But if you have to do a ritual and a spirit formula, why not do an initiation with ordeal of metaplanar quest to find the name of a big form spirit then incorporate that name into the spirit formula and thus use the invoked great form spirit as the base for your ally spirit? And then use the ally spirit ordeal in the next initiation.