Spirit Power Concealment, How do you use it and how do your players Abuse it? Options

[Nexushound]

Oi Chums,

We always have magical back up in our teams, otherwise I would not be alive to make this post, but I have some questions regarding the spirit power concealment and its uses. When are you no longer concealed. I mean the Orc Street Sammie is concealed with a spirit power then goes and unloads his mini-grenade launcher into a squad of Sec-Guards. Is he still concealed. Rules wise I guess I would use perception modifers to allow the security to at least locate the team but would they still be "Invisible"?

Let me know what you think.

[Dumori]

Concealment isn't invisibility any how. And yes the concealment would still be in effect and to locate the firer they would have to roll perception. All the team would know is explosions occurring.

[Starmage21]

Oi Chums,

We always have magical back up in our teams, otherwise I would not be alive to make this post, but I have some questions regarding the spirit power concealment and its uses. When are you no longer concealed. I mean the Orc Street Sammie is concealed with a spirit power then goes and unloads his mini-grenade launcher into a squad of Sec-Guards. Is he still concealed. Rules wise I guess I would use perception modifers to allow the security to at least locate the team but would they still be "Invisible"?

Let me know what you think.

The spirit power Concealment is NOT invisibility. Rather, it is a modifier to the perception pool of opposition who tries to locate the team. If the concealment power reduces the Opposing Force's perception pool below 1, then they cannot perceive the team.

So if the street samurai fires his grenade launcher from within the protection of the concealment power, make a perception test for the OpFor to locate the team, and grant bonuses and penalties as appropriate.

[Akhkharu]

Once, the players used a force 8 spirit concealment to hide their get-away on a boat while EVO was looking for them on another boat. One of the players took cover at the back of the boat and held up a flash-pak, basicly alerting EVO where they players were.

Had EVO roll perception to spot the players, gave them a bonus for the flash-pak alerting them, while took away for the concealment. Worked out to be about even, so they rolled normal and spotted the players.

[DireRadiant]

Since it's a modifier to the perception roll, Concealment Power only matters if there is normally a perception roll.

[Dumori]

There's one for locating where a shot came from. Its normally not used as its kind of easy to tell when the guy down the hall has shot at you but its in the rules in fact by RAW you should probs roll it every time.

[tagz]

I agree with Dire. If no roll is needed to perceive something then the concealment shouldn't work.

So for instance, that troll firing grenades. If he's doing it from an alley then yeah, they need to perceive him. If he waltzed out into the middle of the street and shouted, "HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY!", at the sec guards, then they should know he's there, no contest as the GM could easily rule he is obvious.

[Warlordtheft]

Depends upon the bonus you get to spot the guy shooting. If after the concealment the guy has 4 dice (which can buy a success) I'd say don't worry about rolling it.

[BlueMax]

Since it's a modifier to the perception roll, Concealment Power only matters if there is normally a perception roll.

This is true but my team doesn't abuse force 7 spirits to fire out of the hide, they just walk wherever they want with 7 dice penalty of impunity. And they all have at least 2 levels in the Stealth Group.

[toturi]

I agree with Dire. If no roll is needed to perceive something then the concealment shouldn't work.

So for instance, that troll firing grenades. If he's doing it from an alley then yeah, they need to perceive him. If he waltzed out into the middle of the street and shouted, "HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY!", at the sec guards, then they should know he's there, no contest as the GM could easily rule he is obvious.

Aren't those just modifiers? As long as the troll's player says,"I waltz stealthily into the middle of the street and shouted, 'HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY!' in a disorienting manner at the sec guards to confuse them as to my position" and makes his Infiltration roll, they still need to roll to know he is there. Something Obvious still requires 1 hit on the Perception test.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Aren't those just modifiers? As long as the troll's player says,"I waltz stealthily into the middle of the street and shouted, 'HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY!' in a disorienting manner at the sec guards to confuse them as to my position" and makes his Infiltration roll, they still need to roll to know he is there. Something Obvious still requires 1 hit on the Perception test.

From what I remember of the Rules Toturi, OBVIOUS things require no roll whatsoever, that is why they are OBVIOUS...

Keep the Faith

[DireRadiant]

You need to ask yourselves... If there wasn't the spirits Concealment Power, would a Perception Test have been asked for?

The Concealment Power by itself does not bring into existence a Perception Test. It doesn't make you roll dice. Shooting people makes dice rolls happen, but the existence of Concealment does not.

However, engaging in Infiltration when you may not normally have done so, that might bring the Concealment power into play, but it's some other action that allows Concealment to work, not the Power on it's own.

Concealment Power is still very useful and subject to abuses.

[Ol' Scratch]

Err, the problem with that theory is that Concealment includes the act of hiding into the effect. And unlike most forms of hiding, it works if you're standing in the middle of an open field. Infiltration rolls and the like only improve the effect; they're not required for Concealment to do what it does. It basically means you have to make a Perception (0) Test in order to spot someone, with the test modified by the power's effect.

[toturi]

From what I remember of the Rules Toturi, OBVIOUS things require no roll whatsoever, that is why they are OBVIOUS...

Keep the Faith

From what I remember of the Rules, Tymeaus Jalynsfein, Obvious things require 1 success on the Perception test. Immediately noticeable things do not require a roll.

[pbangarth]

A couple of things:

First, the Concealment power works on (Magic) number of targets, so not everyone in a crowd would be scammed by it. Second, according to the Perception Table on p. 136 of SR4A, even gunfire or a neon sign has a Perception Test threshold of 1. So, modifiers such as the Concealment power could in fact hide the guy out in the field. If a neon sign that is not trying to hide can be missed, so can he.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

From what I remember of the Rules, Tymeaus Jalynsfein, Obvious things require 1 success on the Perception test. Immediately noticeable things do not require a roll.

My Mistake... Immediately Noticeable things that I would include are the idiot yelling "Here PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY" and firing a gun at you... Sorry, in my opinion this is immediately noticeable and draws attention to yourself...

Now, Just taking fire while in a crowd, that is not immediately noticeable, unless the attacker is right next to you... so in this case, I have to imagine that our definitions of what is Immediately noticeable and Obvious differ a lot... also notice that the book (SR4A) recommends not over using the mechanic for perception rolls... Depending upon what your interpretation of Obvious vs. Immediatly Noticeable is, things may not need rolls at all... (I tend to take the tack that the guy down the hall shooting at me is something that is Immedaitely Noticeable, whereas you may think that it is only obvious)...

Now, that being said, Someone that is trying to be a bit stealthy is not going to be in the position of being Immediately Noticeable, and thus a roll should be made... But in your previous example, the fact that the Idiot was yelling "HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY" sort of removes the element of stealth, regardless of whether he is at the mouth of an alley or not...

Different Strokes for Different Folks...
No Worries...


Keep the Faith

[toturi]

Now, that being said, Someone that is trying to be a bit stealthy is not going to be in the position of being Immediately Noticeable, and thus a roll should be made... But in your previous example, the fact that the Idiot was yelling "HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY" sort of removes the element of stealth, regardless of whether he is at the mouth of an alley or not...

Different Strokes for Different Folks...
No Worries...


Keep the Faith

Which is why he "waltz stealthily into the middle of the street and shouted, 'HERE PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY!' in a disorienting manner at the sec guards to confuse them as to my position".

[Ol' Scratch]

First, the Concealment power works on (Magic) number of targets

No, that's how many people can be concealed at once, not how many people are indirectly affected by the concealment. Concealment doesn't do jack squat to anyone observing the effect, it simply blends the targets into the environment like camouflage on crack.

[pbangarth]

No, that's how many people can be concealed at once, not how many people are indirectly affected by the concealment. Concealment doesn't do jack squat to anyone observing the effect, it simply blends the targets into the environment like camouflage on crack.

Ah, forgive me. The power description uses the words 'target' and 'subject' interchangeably. Silly me, I thought they meant different things.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I don't know, Being under concealment generally implies that whatever the character's doing isn't immediately obvious because he's pretty damn near unsensible while doing it. If you had a force 6 spirit dong the concealing, that's the equivalent of having the PCs who are trying to see the character be deaf, blind, and whatever the other nouns for the lack of your other senses are. It doesn't matter how loud the bullhorn you blow into the deaf man's ear is, he'll still never be able to hear you.

[Harbin]

Once, the players used a force 8 spirit concealment to hide their get-away on a boat while EVO was looking for them on another boat. One of the players took cover at the back of the boat and held up a flash-pak, basicly alerting EVO where they players were.

Had EVO roll perception to spot the players, gave them a bonus for the flash-pak alerting them, while took away for the concealment. Worked out to be about even, so they rolled normal and spotted the players.

What. D:

Was that player an idiot, or was he working for EVO?

[Nexushound]

OI Chums,

Thanks for the Info. I understand that Concealment is not Invisibility, hence the quotation marks, but for ease of posting I used that simple term to describe it. I recall concealment being a bad thing from other editions. You felt like that guy in "It's a Wonderfull Life" as if you never even existed. Kind of a living nightmare where the world was oblivious to your existence but you were right there screaming "Somebody Notice ME." Any thoughts on why it was changed? My guess is players ignored the peril and pain of the original concealment and went ahead and used the power on themselves any way. My players tried...."Tried" muwhahahaha

[Patrick the Gnom...]

That'd be an interesting concept for a PC. Someone who asked a free spirit to conceal him so that no one could ever see him again, and then realized that no one could ever see him again. Or hear him. Or feel him. He'd be like a ghost, no one would be able to tell that he was there, they could only sense him indirectly through his actions. Might be fun for a little while, but I'd imagine he'd get tired of messing with people after a while.

[Muspellsheimr]

Away from books at the moment, but if memory serves, Perception works as follows.

Perceiver Distracted (not Observing in Detail): -2 dice pool
Stands Out In Some Way (Flashing Neon Sign): +2 dice pool
Concealment Power: -Magic
Active Enhancements: Variable (usually +3 & dependent on sense used)
To notice something, you must acheive 1 (net) Hit. Additional hits give additional information (metahuman -> Ork -> female Ork -> ~20 years old)


If your dice pool is reduced to 0, you cannot succeed. Generally, a moderate to high Force spirit is more than enough to make a character "invisible". Upper level security with active enhancements will have a chance to notice a concealed character that is not infiltrating, but are probably shit outa luck against a concealed infiltrator. Against a talented perceiver, concealment is probably only useful if it suppliments infiltration.

[Nexushound]

Oi Chum,

Now that is an answer. Thanks. My players use the infiltration along with the Concealment power so grunts and thugs usally losse out in the end. On the off chance that they did spot the PCs what would they see? Would they see right through the Concealment or maybe just a shadow or a glimpse of some some movement? With higher end security that have active enhancements and a much better chance to see the team I ask the same question. What would they see if they did succed in their perception tests to notice the sneaky, Spirit backed, Shadowrunners?