Technomancers & Tac Nets, "Just the FAQ's, Ma'am, just the FAQ's..." Options

[Kerenshara]

I was browsing through the updated FAQ's for 4A, which are a heck of an improvement from the last FAQ's in terms of both breadth and detail, to say nothing of the topics selected. The amount of time spent on hacking and magic in particular seemed to mirror the length of the discussion threads I remember seeing (participating in) here. One thing directly occurred to me, so I will throw it out for everybody to chew on:


Anybody who remembers me at all will recall that I'm a huge fan of tying a SimRig into a Tac Net for a wealth of reasons. Because they have stated (and re-stated in the FAQ, actually) that each sense in a SimSense recording is an individual "track" of information which can be filtered on and off, that means the take from my eyes is, from the perspective of a Tac Net, no different than the take from an un-improved cybereye. More importantly, if I have vision enhancements, they count as well.


Now, it particularly says that a Technomancer can create a complex form, either through Threading or by learning it permanently with Karma, which directly replicates the functionality of a SimRig. They have to store the take offline somehow, but if you're feeding it right into the Tac Net, it's less of an issue. So the Technomancer learns the Tac Software as a Complex Form and adds that the aforementioned SimRig CF. Now you can put your teams Tactical Network hub behind the formidable defenses of a Technomancer's Biological Node. The Technomancer's Eyeball, Mk 1 Rev 0 is their primary visual sensor, while their Eardrums, Mk 1 Rev 0 are online as their primary auditory system. If the software can interpret smell into usable data (smell of Cordite™, or maybe gasoline anybody?) and you've got a useful warning from an often overlooked sense. Sensing the floor becoming wobbly or slippery can likewise toss up a warning, or sudden spikes in temperature… you get the idea.


Ok, so, now that I've opened that can of worms, have at it. I'd love to hear other ideas to take this basic concept even further, if anybody has any. And of course, my usual disclaimer: play nice, respect each other's ideas (even especially if you think they suck), and let's try to keep it from turning into a flame war. Vigorous intellectual debate is fine, and even a little intellectual bloodletting in moderation can make for a fun thread.



"Ale Chat!"

[X-Kalibur]

Skinlink other sensors into your CF'd simrig to get the signal count up. Wearing glasses/goggles with multiple vision mods counts, as would earbuds/headphones. Add in some small sensors that include radar, chem sniffers, etc and you've got a multitude of signals going into the 'Net.

(I'd also say they should be able to CF a tacnet as well, hell, they can CF a smartlink... it counts as well for their singals)

Also, good to see you again, 'Shara.

[hermit]

Yet another powergaming possibility for mancers. Yet another reason to ban them from the table.

Other than that, the possibilities of a simrig are indeed intriguing, especially for the team mage. Hello and welcome back, Neuromancer's Attack on the Sense/Net Pyramid!

[Kerenshara]

Yet another powergaming possibility for mancers. Yet another reason to ban them from the table.

Other than that, the possibilities of a simrig are indeed intriguing, especially for the team mage. Hello and welcome back, Neuromancer's Attack on the Sense/Net Pyramid!

Yeah, the SimRig will bring in anything EXCEPT Astral Perception from the mage... ok and the "mental" detection spells.

As to the power of 'Mancers, not having a Matrix Damage Track is a pretty big Achile's Heel, if you ask me. That and having NO option for Cold Sim.

Thanks for the welcome back, both you and X-Kalibur! Life got messy for a while, but hopefully this time I'm here to stay. *crosses fingers*

[D2F]

I'm sorry, am I missing something? How exactly is a CF SimRig overpowered, or even a benefit over a regular simrig? How is a 'mancer hosted TacNet any better than a regular one (with the sole exception of hacking a living node)? And how is a TacNet CF any better than regular TacNet software?

[hermit]

Best wishes to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What irks me about the mancers most are the Unwired Echos (Good morning, Mr. Anderson), and the sprites, which are obscenely useful. that and that they can hack anywhere, even a computer that is off the grid and not powered (see resonance quests), they can easily beef their dice pool to ludicrous levels with threading and sprites, they cannot be hacked, but can hack anyone and there is no defense against that (and even if they go the normal way, you need bleeding edge matrixware and to abuse the hell out of Unwired's rporgamming options and Arsenal's device upgrades to have a half decent chance at stopping them). Oh, did I mention they can have their machine sprites hack you while they'Re punching you thanks to the new Echos? Yes, they always run about in hot sim and take actual damage when damaged, hence. That is a certain weakness, but since you're not very likely to actually hit them, it's tolerable.

Mancers are like mages with all brakes pulled. And mages are overpowered to begin with. That is why I will not allow them as PCs in my games.

And the problem most mages have is that they lack vision/aural enhancements that can be counted as sensor feeds. The Simrig provides there. Very helpful.

I'm sorry, am I missing something?

Make the TM the admin of your TacNet and it is unhackable. Overpowered enough?

Also, TacNet CFs are subject to threading, are they not? If so, a Level 7 TacNet is not unviable. A level 7 Tacnet that is unhackable by anyone other than other mancers. Good thing SR4 wanterd to make the Hacker superfluous again, by introducing Neo.

[X-Kalibur]

I'm sorry, am I missing something? How exactly is a CF SimRig overpowered, or even a benefit over a regular simrig? How is a 'mancer hosted TacNet any better than a regular one (with the sole exception of hacking a living node)? And how is a TacNet CF any better than regular TacNet software?

Only other TMs can hack a biological node, making your TacNet virtually (heh) secure.

[D2F]

Make the TM the admin of your TacNet and it is unhackable. Overpowered enough?

Not really. It doesn't change anything about the functionality of the TacNet. And it can still be hacked by resonance entities.

Only other TMs can hack a biological node, making your TacNet virtually (heh) secure.

And I still don't see why that would be a particularly powefull advantage, let alone overpowered.
It's an advantage, yes. But it doesn't change anything about the TacNet functionality and on itself, hacking resistance offers no game breaking combat advantage, as far as the TacNet is concerned.

Are there some rules I missed?

[DireRadiant]

To Hack a TM I recommend a Crescent Laser Axe.

[hermit]

Not really. It doesn't change anything about the functionality of the TacNet. And it can still be hacked by resonance entities.

And that is a good thing? Check out the Threading too, please.

To Hack a TM I recommend a Crescent Laser Axe.

Which would spontaneously stop being a Laseraxe, courtesy of the Machine Spirit. And then the mancer would use it's awesome Matrix Initiative and threaded Level Umpteen Skillsofts with Widget support to smack it up your face.

[X-Kalibur]

A TM needs time and karma to reach those states of brokeness and is fairly worthless as anything but a dedicated hacker until that time. Mages are at least more well rounded out the game... generally speaking. I can, using rules presented and the normal BP, make a hacker with 5 matrix IPs that a good number of systems would have a hard time stopping.

The big problem most people seem to have is stealth, which is a quick hot fix. Tie it to their firewall, or don't allow them to thread it higher.

[hermit]

The big problem most people seem to have is stealth, which is a quick hot fix. Tie it to their firewall, or don't allow them to thread it higher.

If you need house rules, it is broken RAW.

A TM needs time and karma to reach those states of brokeness and is fairly worthless as anything but a dedicated hacker until that time. Mages are at least more well rounded out the game... generally speaking. I can, using rules presented and the normal BP, make a hacker with 5 matrix IPs that a good number of systems would have a hard time stopping.

KarmaGen is Neo's friend.

[D2F]

Also, TacNet CFs are subject to threading, are they not? If so, a Level 7 TacNet is not unviable. A level 7 Tacnet that is unhackable by anyone other than other mancers. Good thing SR4 wanterd to make the Hacker superfluous again, by introducing Neo.

While that is a theoretical advantage, you will find it hard to find a group that is able to provide 14 different sensory channels EACH.

And that is a good thing? Check out the Threading too, please.

I replied to the threading above (we are abit out of sync due to the edit). I am not saying hacking resistance is not an advantage. I am saying that cannot see how it is an overpowered (read: game breaking) advantage.
If the GM wants to hack the biological node, send a resonance entity. Problem solved.
If the GM thinks that TacNet itself is too powerfuly, have it removed from the game.
If the GM thinks threading a TacNet CF (definitely a neat advantage) is too powerful, point him at the required minimum amount of sensory channels required for such a TacNet.

I can see you arguing that a TacNet CF is better than a regular TacNet and I would agree. I just can't see how you would justify to call it overpowered.

[X-Kalibur]

TacNets cap at 3 per RAW. (Or rather a +3 bonus) also, KarmaGen is not RAW either, invalidating that argument.

[hermit]

While that is a theoretical advantage, you will find it hard to find a group that is able to provide 14 different sensory channels EACH.

simrig supplies 5 (sight/smell/sound/touch/taste), lowlight/IR/UV/Ultrasound Googles make 4, Biomonitor is another 1, Helmet with hearing amp, filter and selective damper is another 3, Smartlinked weaopons and googles/cyber is another +1 and then everybody gets a Sprite living in their googles for that last +1. And it doesn't even take any cyber, so the team mage can do this too. This would not even cost all that much.

TacNets cap at 3 per RAW. (Or rather a +3 bonus) also, KarmaGen is not RAW either, invalidating that argument.

Optional, but last time I looked it was in Runners' Companion, so yes, RAW. TacNets are hardcapped, capping even threading? Because a TacNet CF is not a program.

[DWC]

simrig supplies 5 (sight/smell/sound/touch/taste), lowlight/IR/UV/Ultrasound Googles make 4, Biomonitor is another 1, Helmet with hearing amp, filter and selective damper is another 3, Smartlinked weaopons and googles/cyber is another +1 and then everybody gets a Sprite living in their googles for that last +1. And it doesn't even take any cyber, so the team mage can do this too. This would not even cost all that much.


Optional, but last time I looked it was in Runners' Companion, so yes, RAW. TacNets are hardcapped, capping even threading? Because a TacNet CF is not a program.

Unless I missed an item in the FAQ, my copy of Unwired lists Tactical AR software as going to a rating of 4, however no software rating is ever a hard maximum, merely the maximum that can be bought.

[hermit]

Maximum hardcap is Processor. However, for Unwired there was a cap for buyable TacNet Software at 4 (not 3, mea culpa). Like with Skillsofts, for all I understand this is a hard cap.

[DWC]

Technically, the hard cap is double the System rating, thanks to Optimization, and System is only limited by how much time you have to program, since nexi ignore the Response cap that normal commlinks suffer. Someone who takes the time to write it himself can run a Rating 12 Tactical AR Network on an off the shelf 1500 nuyen nexus that they bought at the mall.

Threading, of course, bypasses all of this.

[hermit]

Technically, the hard cap is double the System rating, thanks to Optimization, and System is only limited by how much time you have to program, since nexi ignore the Response cap that normal commlinks suffer.

They do? Source please?

And I distinctly remember that Optimisation still caps at System. It just makes running more program "points" on any given system possible, making commlinks actually half valid.

[D2F]

simrig supplies 5 (sight/smell/sound/touch/taste), lowlight/IR/UV/Ultrasound Googles make 4, Biomonitor is another 1, Helmet with hearing amp, filter and selective damper is another 3, Smartlinked weaopons and googles/cyber is another +1 and then everybody gets a Sprite living in their googles for that last +1. And it doesn't even take any cyber, so the team mage can do this too. This would not even cost all that much.

Your list above can be disputed:

Each sense or sensor accounts for a separate sensor channel. This sensory input could include:

Natural Senses: Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig each count as a sensor channel. Natural enhancements such as low-light and thermographic count as additional senses.

Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, olfactory, or other sense acquired via cybereyes, cyberears, olfactory booster, orientation system, etc. Sensory enhancements such as low-light, thermorgraphic, smartlink, ultrasound, radar, spatial recognizers, and so on each count as a separate sensor channel.

Sensor Systems: Data acquired from worn, carried, or mounted sensor systems of various types (cameras, microphones,
range finders, motion sensors, etc.) may also be contributed to the network as a sensor channel. Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating.

If we are being literal about that list, the vision Enhancements from the goggles in your above excemple wouldn't count, as they are neither natural nor cybernetic in natire and do not count as "sensors" but rather vision ehancements. Also, "Taste" and "Touch" wouldn't count, either, dropping your total by 6 points already. Personally, I would allow the vision enhancements from the goggles to count, but we're not arguing personal preferances here.

The next hurdle is:

Sensor channels are defined as any type of sensory input that can be transmitted to the tactical network (and that contributes in some way to analyzing the tactical situation).

That brings up a few situational questions:

-Does the Biomonitor add any relevant information in the given situation?
-Does smell add any relevant information in that situation?
-Does the hearing amplifier add relevant information in that situation? (It wouldn't during a firefight, for excemple)
-Does the sound damper add relevant information in tat situation? (It wouldn't during an infiltration attempt, for excemple)
-How does the sprite even add relevant information? (technically he would not be counted a sensor)

Even then, the maximum bonus is hardcapped:

When in operation, tacnets provide dice pool bonuses for certain actions. The dice pool bonus is based on the number of team members (that is, each member that is supplying the minimum amount of sensor channels). The bonus equals the total number of team members minus 2

Does your team really field 7 members? If that is the case, your TacNet is the least of the problems.

Optional, but last time I looked it was in Runners' Companion, so yes, RAW. TacNets are hardcapped, capping even threading? Because a TacNet CF is not a program.

Since threading complex forms allows them to exceed ratings of 6 I would rule that a TacNet CF could be threaded past 3 as well. Not sure if there are specific rules governing it, though.

Also, you can only sustain so many threaded programs until your dice pools drop to 0.

[tagz]

At first I agreed with most of hermit says, but GMing with one on the team has led me to soften on them.

I've found that a lot of the techonomancer craziness can be overcome with more simplistic matrix tricks.

For instance, the tacnet is only "secure" if it's set up as a centralized tacnet, otherwise a hacker could hack anyone on the team and have at the tacnet. So everyone needs to slave their comlinks. That can be a problem in of itself. But even then, a spoof can work magic on that tacnet, since we all know encryption is fairly weak. Send the spoof to the teammates with the Access ID of the TM and suddenly enemy blips disappear, the map overlay is deleted, someone shouting "RUN!" gets modded in real time to say "ATTACK!", or since the links are slaved, just send a command to shutdown, etc. Easily turn that bonus into a negative modifier if you wanted. Won't effect the TM's info and he'll see it happening if he's isn't slotting a sim during the mission, but he'll have to spend his time devoted to stopping the spoofs and fixing the info. Or even if you don't spoof it, you can eavesdrop on it with a Capture Wireless Signal action. That can easily set up an ambush. Course, both these require you know the tacnet is there, but so does regular exploit based hacking.

Let me know if I got anything wrong there though, I'm still iffy with the matrix sometimes but I think that's all possible.


Also, I think p 125 Unwired says that "Tactical Software" has a maximum rating of 4, not 3. And the wording is "Software", not "Program" so it should apply to both Programs and Complex forms if I'm not mistaken.

[DWC]

They do? Source please?

And I distinctly remember that Optimisation still caps at System. It just makes running more program "points" on any given system possible, making commlinks actually half valid.

Optimization caps at System. System 6 means 6 points of Optimization, which means a System 6 can run a Rating 12 program.

Unwired pg50 under the heading of "Nexi" says "Their configuration and design also means that System rating is not capped by Response."

[hermit]

Your list above can be disputed:

If we are being literal about that list, the vision Enhancements from the goggles in your above excemple wouldn't count, as they are neither natural nor cybernetic in natire and do not count as "sensors" but rather vision ehancements. Also, "Taste" and "Touch" wouldn't count, either, dropping your total by 6 points already. Personally, I would allow the vision enhancements from the goggles to count, but we're not arguing personal preferances here.

They're a sensor system. Replace Touch and Taste with spatial recognisers in the googles and an orientation system woven into their clothes.

The next hurdle is:

That brings up a few situational questions:

-Does the Biomonitor add any relevant information in the given situation?

A Health Counter for each party member? That is far more useful than smell sensors are most of the time.

-Does smell add any relevant information in that situation?

Gas, vague direction of smelly things (humans can actually smell threedimensionally).

-Does the hearing amplifier add relevant information in that situation? (It wouldn't during a firefight, for excemple)

Selective filter and it does.

-Does the sound damper add relevant information in tat situation? (It wouldn't during an infiltration attempt, for excemple)

It damps out the sounds the team makes, making possible to focus entirely on environment noises. Like the tiny cough from three booths away which you otherwise might not have heared for the sound of your own breathing.

-How does the sprite even add relevant information? (technically he would not be counted a sensor)

Sure he does. Everything's better with Sprites. But if you dislike the Sprite, add a Radar Sensor on each party member's helmet.

Even then, the maximum bonus is hardcapped:

Does your team really field 7 members? If that is the case, your TacNet is the least of the problems.

4 man, 3 drones with machine sprites. If you really want to split a couple hairs, make it biodrones and count them as critters.

Since threading complex forms allows them to exceed ratings of 6 I would rule that a TacNet CF could be threaded past 3 as well. Not sure if there are specific rules governing it, though.

Me neither. If not, however, the sky is as much the limit as with everything else that is threadable.

Also, you can only sustain so many threaded programs until your dice pools drop to 0.

you can sustain a couple for free with the right echos. I think there even was an exploit to make every new threaded CF subtract 0 from the DP, but I think that has been pulled by SR4A.

[DWC]

One other thing about Tactical AR software that puts a damper on TMs running it. Even if you can't hack into the technomancer's biological node, everyone in the team is broadcasting a huge amount of extremely valuable data which anyone with a decent Decrypt and Sniffer program can listen in on without any member of the network knowing.

[Jaid]

it is worth noting that the simrig could just as easily be replaced with nothing more than a bunch of handheld sensors for the mage. it really isn't that big of a deal.