Endowed Materialization and foci, what comes through along with you? Options

[pbangarth]

So there you are in astral space, Endowed with Materialization by your friendly Invoked spirit, and you Materialize into physical space to do harm to your unsuspecting foe. (See SR4A and the new FAQ for particulars.)

Does that handy Weapon Focus that came along in astral space come through with you? If it does, does it take its original form or whatever idealized form it had on the astral plane? What about the Power Focus, Centering Focus, etc., etc.

If it(they) doesn't(don't) come through, is it(are they) deactivated back where your meat body is waiting?

[D2F]

So there you are in astral space, Endowed with Materialization by your friendly Invoked spirit, and you Materialize into physical space to do harm to your unsuspecting foe. (See SR4A and the new FAQ for particulars.)

Does that handy Weapon Focus that came along in astral space come through with you? If it does, does it take its original form or whatever idealized form it had on the astral plane? What about the Power Focus, Centering Focus, etc., etc.

If it(they) doesn't(don't) come through, is it(are they) deactivated back where your meat body is waiting?

Everything your astral form had. Weapon Foci don't have an idealized shape on the astral plane, either, they always look the same. The foci never leave the meat body, so they remain active. You should not be able to lose them either, as they are part of your materialzed form.

[pbangarth]

Everything your astral form had. Weapon Foci don't have an idealized shape on the astral plane, either, they always look the same. The foci never leave the meat body, so they remain active. You should not be able to lose them either, as they are part of your materialzed form.

I would like this to be the case, but I am not convinced that it is. Materialization allows the spirit/Endowed character to make a material form, but it says nothing about stuff being carried. The bond between mage and focus carries on to metaplanes, so I suppose that could be an argument in favour of keeping the focus with you. Hmmm... I guess this last argument carries some weight... Materialization might be similar to going to a metaplane.

[D2F]

I would like this to be the case, but I am not convinced that it is. Materialization allows the spirit/Endowed character to make a material form, but it says nothing about stuff being carried. The bond between mage and focus carries on to metaplanes, so I suppose that could be an argument in favour of keeping the focus with you. Hmmm... I guess this last argument carries some weight... Materialization might be similar to going to a metaplane.

I went through the rules again. Previously activated foci will acompany you to the astral Plane as individual astral forms.
The Materialization Power allows your Form to physical manifest in the mundane realm.

It appears your concern was valid. It says nowhere that you can materialize other astral forms along with your own.

Since you are endowed with your spirits materialization power it is to assume that your materialized form is dual natured, though, so could still use the weapon focus against dual natured or purely astral targets. Also, since you are dual natured, you can still use all the foci you had activated when you astrally projected. Their forms are still with you and as a dual natured entity you can establish the nescessary physical contact.
Thus, you would be able to still use your weapon focus against mundane physical opponents, you just couldn't hit them with it.
That may seem strange, but if you use an unarmed weapon focus (like shock gloves or hardliner gloves) you would still gain the full benefit, while using regular unarmed damage.

[pbangarth]

I went through the rules again. Previously activated foci will acompany you to the astral Plane as individual astral forms.
The Materialization Power allows your Form to physical manifest in the mundane realm.

It appears your concern was valid. It says nowhere that you can materialize other astral forms along with your own.

Since you are endowed with your spirits materialization power it is to assume that your materialized form is dual natured, though, so could still use the weapon focus against dual natured or purely astral targets. Also, since you are dual natured, you can still use all the foci you had activated when you astrally projected. Their forms are still with you and as a dual natured entity you can establish the nescessary physical contact.
Thus, you would be able to still use your weapon focus against mundane physical opponents, you just couldn't hit them with it.
That may seem strange, but if you use an unarmed weapon focus (like shock gloves or hardliner gloves) you would still gain the full benefit, while using regular unarmed damage.

The 'shock' or 'hardliner' attributes of these gloves would not transfer to the astral plane, so they should not be available to materialize back into the physical plane.

I see your point about being dual-natured, and dual-natured and astral targets. That makes sense. Similarly for non-weapon foci, they should still remain attached and work in the astral plane.

[D2F]

The 'shock' or 'hardliner' attributes of these gloves would not transfer to the astral plane, so they should not be available to materialize back into the physical plane.

Even if they did, they would not transfer to the material plane. That's not what you're interested in, anyway. The bonus to unarmed combat is.

I see your point about being dual-natured, and dual-natured and astral targets. That makes sense. Similarly for non-weapon foci, they should still remain attached and work in the astral plane.

They have no purely physical function anyway.

[pbangarth]

Even if they did, they would not transfer to the material plane. That's not what you're interested in, anyway. The bonus to unarmed combat is.
They have no purely physical function anyway.

The thing is, I don't see them appearing on the physical plane. All of them would still work on the astral, as you suggested earlier, but their effects, including the bonus dice to dice pool, would not accrue on a plane on which they don't exist. So, the weapon focus would add dice to an attack on a spirit, but not on a street sam.

[Jaid]

The thing is, I don't see them appearing on the physical plane. All of them would still work on the astral, as you suggested earlier, but their effects, including the bonus dice to dice pool, would not accrue on a plane on which they don't exist. So, the weapon focus would add dice to an attack on a spirit, but not on a street sam.

but as a materialized being, you do exist in the astral as well as the physical. as such, you should be able to get the bonus to unarmed combat.

[D2F]

The thing is, I don't see them appearing on the physical plane. All of them would still work on the astral, as you suggested earlier, but their effects, including the bonus dice to dice pool, would not accrue on a plane on which they don't exist. So, the weapon focus would add dice to an attack on a spirit, but not on a street sam.

Keep in mind that YOU are on the astral plane. That is all that realy matters.

[DireRadiant]

The effects of the activated foci that went with you went you went from physical to astral should also come into play when you materialize. It's the psychic power that is being given material form when you Materialize. You are astral goo made real, since that astral goo had +1 power focus, so does the materialized one. Don't think of the foci in astral space as a physical object, but as a power or ability your astral form has, when that astral form Materializes, then it has that power as well.

Thought experiment. If you have an active foci when you astrally project, are you able to separate yourself from it while astral? If you can, how does this affect things when you stop astrally projecting?

It would seem "safer" to go with the concept that the act of astrally projecting creates a singular astral form that has attributes of both the projecting mage and the active foci. Note that this doesn't prevent another astral form from specifically targeting the active foci, it can be treated as a called target.

[D2F]

The effects of the activated foci that went with you went you went from physical to astral should also come into play when you materialize. It's the psychic power that is being given material form when you Materialize. You are astral goo made real, since that astral goo had +1 power focus, so does the materialized one. Don't think of the foci in astral space as a physical object, but as a power or ability your astral form has, when that astral form Materializes, then it has that power as well.

That's wat I initially thought as well, but the RAW specifically state that Foci acompany your astral form as individual astral forms:

When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally projecting magician to which they are bound. A projecting magician must activate any foci she wishes to take with her in advance (though she can deactivate them at any time).

Since they are individual astral forms, they will not materialize with you. They will remain with you as purely astral forms, though.

Thought experiment. If you have an active foci when you astrally project, are you able to separate yourself from it while astral? If you can, how does this affect things when you stop astrally projecting?

You can willingly deactivate a focus you have with you while astraly projecting, effectively seperating yourself from it (the astral form of the focus vanishes).

It would seem "safer" to go with the concept that the act of astrally projecting creates a singular astral form that has attributes of both the projecting mage and the active foci. Note that this doesn't prevent another astral form from specifically targeting the active foci, it can be treated as a called target.

I agree that this would be the most convenient way, but that's not how it is in SR4. I was mistaken about that myself.

[DireRadiant]

That distinct astral form of foci makes things a bit more tricky. Would it work then to have the spirit endow the foci with Materialization as well?

[D2F]

That distinct astral form of foci makes things a bit more tricky. Would it work then to have the spirit endow the foci with Materialization as well?

It's getting tricky at that point, since I am not confident that these astral forms have a consciousness and would be able to actually use that power, even if they are endowed with it. Other than that, it would work.

[pbangarth]

I don't think the Endowment power does that. The description in Street Magic specifically mentions "character" having the power, so I would go with only sentient beings being able to be Endowed.

Nevertheless, I think that the point that the foci would still function on the astral as they are still connected to the dual-natured character applies. The tricky part in this interpretation is whether an enhancement to a dual-natured character on the astral carries over to the physical when he Materializes. Does a Power Focus that adds to the character's Tests using Magic help him even if he is casting a spell on the physical plane? His Magic Attribute is present on both planes, but is the enhancement from the Focus as well?

How about looking at the reverse? An astrally perceiving magician on the physical plane has a focus which can be used on either plane (one or the other at a time). But there the physical component of the focus is present. In a Materialized form, the physical component is still back with the meat body.

[D2F]

Does a Power Focus that adds to the character's Tests using Magic help him even if he is casting a spell on the physical plane?

Yes. Only contact is needed and you can establish contact.

His Magic Attribute is present on both planes, but is the enhancement from the Focus as well?

There is no reason to assume otherwise. As long as contact can be established, the focus can be used.

How about looking at the reverse? An astrally perceiving magician on the physical plane has a focus which can be used on either plane (one or the other at a time). But there the physical component of the focus is present. In a Materialized form, the physical component is still back with the meat body.

The physical form of the focus is not required for it to provide the bonus. The astral form is sufficient. The astral form is also linked to the physical focus.

[darthmord]

How about looking at the reverse? An astrally perceiving magician on the physical plane has a focus which can be used on either plane (one or the other at a time). But there the physical component of the focus is present. In a Materialized form, the physical component is still back with the meat body.

How is the physical form not present? It's on his meat body. When he went astral, the astral form of the focus hitched a ride with him (still however linked to the physical form, just like the mage's astral form is to his body).

I would have to rule that the astral form of any focus or otherwise magical device that was with the mage when he went astral goes with him (as desired). Under such a thing, if the mage was able to Materialize, I'd say the astral form stays with him in the same state.

IOW, the focus' astral form does what the mage's astral form does. mage goes Materialize, so does the Focus.

One thing to keep in mind is that while there would be two 'physical' forms, one is real, the other is made of astral stuff. Just like spirits. The physical form made of Astral Stuff ™ only exists as an extension of will. Once the mage stops Materialization, it ceases to exist.

That's how I'd rule it since there are now specific or general rules in RAW for such a situation.

[Banaticus]

The thing is, I don't see them appearing on the physical plane. All of them would still work on the astral, as you suggested earlier, but their effects, including the bonus dice to dice pool, would not accrue on a plane on which they don't exist.

But they do exist on the physical plane, back on the caster's meat body. They were copied into the astral realm and went with the caster wherever he goes. Now he's manifesting somewhere.

Can all summoned spirits with the manifest power (instead of possession) endow such upon a person?
Edit: Ah, I see, they use the endow power, p99 in Street Magic

[Falconer]

I think the rules are fairly clear cut.

You use endowment... you materialize.. YOU materialize, not your foci. Though they're still attached to your astral form and active. As you're effectively now a dual-natured critter.


IE: the weapon focus is still usefull for astral combat... though using it for combat against non-dual natured meatbags isn't going to do you much good. Allowing the weapon focus to be present physically is too powerfull IMO... if you were present physically w/ the focus, the focus could be physically stolen/broken/etc... so there's a lot of potential drawbacks which just aren't there now.

Not only that, but as an astral form... when you materialize which stats do you use? Your mentals replace physicals on the astral... but materialized spirits have their own physical stat lines separate from their mentals. So that means what, unaugmented natural stats carry over?


Also, did anyone catch the ramifications of the FAQ on duration of a service... power used/sustained as service ends when the spirit uses another power. IE: spirit endows you, you order it to do something else you lose endowment... Goes a long way towards corraling and bringing spirits into line... even if the length of a service is pretty damn long otherwise.

[pbangarth]

You use endowment... you materialize.. YOU materialize, not your foci. Though they're still attached to your astral form and active. As you're effectively now a dual-natured critter.

This is how I see it, though others here argue otherwise.

Not only that, but as an astral form... when you materialize which stats do you use? Your mentals replace physicals on the astral... but materialized spirits have their own physical stat lines separate from their mentals. So that means what, unaugmented natural stats carry over?

From the FAQ: "A spirit with Endowment can share any power it possesses. When using the power the character uses the spirit's attributes for any tests necessary for the power, as the power originates from the spirit."

Endowment gives powers to the endowed that work based on the Force of the spirit Endowing them. For example, a magician Endowed with Movement by a Force 5 spirit could affect movement by a factor of 5. The Materialization power gives the spirit, while on the physical plane, new stats based on the Force. So, the act of Materialization would give new Attributes based on the Force of the spirit. A Materialized magician would have stats equal to those the Endowing spirit would have if it Materialized. This includes the special stats. This can be a good thing or a bad thing for the magician, depending on how her stats compare to those of the spirit.

Also, did anyone catch the ramifications of the FAQ on duration of a service... power used/sustained as service ends when the spirit uses another power. IE: spirit endows you, you order it to do something else you lose endowment... Goes a long way towards corraling and bringing spirits into line... even if the length of a service is pretty damn long otherwise.

Didn't catch that, thanks. So, a bound spirit's service no longer runs out at sunrise/sunset, but any new command wipes out the old service.

[Falconer]

It's nowhere near that cut and dried that the mage would get the spirits materialized stats. It's a valid reading of the rules I agree, the catch is there's other potential readings as well. Materialization doesn't 'give' stats or reference force at all (p296)... it only allows the spirits pre-existing physical stats to express themselves for example... in this case... the characters physical stats could express themselves through the same manner w/o getting into the force and stats of the spirit.

The problem is it's unclear, as I don't believe when people were considering endowment... the thought that people would use it to gain materialization (or even possession, which does explicitly mention force of spirits effect on the vessel).


You want screwed up... I have my great form guardian grant me possession... I then go astral, and proceed to 'possess' my own body's empty vessel... gaining most all the benefits of possession w/ none of the drawbacks of sharing rent w/ a spirit.

[pbangarth]

It's nowhere near that cut and dried that the mage would get the spirits materialized stats. It's a valid reading of the rules I agree, the catch is there's other potential readings as well. Materialization doesn't 'give' stats... it only allows the spirits pre-existing physical stats to express themselves for example... in this case... the characters physical stats could express themselves through the same manner w/o getting into the force and stats of the spirit.

What other reading could you use that incorporates the wording of Endowment and the clarification in the FAQ?

You want screwed up... I have my great form guardian grant me possession... I then go astral, and proceed to 'possess' my own body's empty vessel... gaining most all the benefits of possession w/ none of the drawbacks of sharing rent w/ a spirit.

Exactly so. Except that you have no spirit present in any form to do its other powers, and you get zapped out of your own body if the spirit or the link to it is disrupted somehow, or you need that other power NOW, or the number of services is cut to zero by banishment... etc. That could be awkward in the middle of combat.

[D2F]

So, we got what right now? The choice between "Mage uses the stats of his astral form while materializing" (as it is the astral form that materializes) and "Mage uses the stats of the Materialized Spirit while materializing" (as the Spirits Force is used as a base)? Is that about it?

[Ol' Scratch]

The big problem is that powers like Astral Form, Materialization, and Sapience shouldn't be granted by Endowment. They're not really "powers" so much as innate abilities, and it's fairly clear that the intent of Endowment is to give away more active and magicky powers like Elemental Attack and Movement. Unfortunately, the rules refuse to acknowledge that small tidbit, so you get silliness like this thread cropping up. Nevermind some of the really outrageous things you can do with that poorly designed power which I don't want to touch upon for the sake of sane GMs everywhere.

That said, and assuming a strict GM (which is a safe assumption as a loose GM really wouldn't care one way or the other), I'd argue that the foci and other secondary astral forms don't make the transition unless the spirit specifically endowed Materialization to them (which is moot since they don't have the sentience required to use a power; but hey, there's Sapience they can endow, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) ). Astral projection has its own rules* which allow magical items to project along with the magician. Materialization is not part of those rules and makes no mention whatsoever of foci or other accompanying astral forms. Then there's also the bit about how spirits can't bind and use foci anyway (based upon the rules for Free Spirit PCs), mostly for this very reason, and you sort of get a big ol' "No" for an answer.

* Actually, and I admit I haven't looked very hard, it seems that only a Weapon Focus can make the transition to astral form anyway. It's the only focus listed (SR4A pp. 199-200) with that capability, and the rules for astral projection didn't seem to mention foci coming along at all. There may be a blurb that talks about it somewhere, but I didn't see it on a casual observation of the rules. It's hogwash, but it seems to be yet another weird 4th edition rule. Or lack thereof.

[D2F]

* Actually, and I admit I haven't looked very hard, it seems that only a Weapon Focus can make the transition to astral form anyway. It's the only focus listed (SR4A pp. 199-200) with that capability, and the rules for astral projection didn't seem to mention foci coming along at all. There may be a blurb that talks about it somewhere, but I didn't see it on a casual observation of the rules. It's hogwash, but it seems to be yet another weird 4th edition rule. Or lack thereof.

When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally projecting magician to which they are bound. A projecting magician must activate any foci she wishes to take with her in advance (though she can deactivate them at any time).

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah, cool. I see why I missed it, too. The PDF search function seems to scan pages from right to left for some reason, and I didn't bother to keep searching when it found "projecting" at the end of the page under weapon foci. Weird. Anyway, it's a good thing I mentioned that "I admit I haven't looked very hard." But thanks for the needless emphasis to aid my apparent inability to read a forum post. Appreciate it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Despite, you know, the whole "I admit I haven't looked very hard" thing.