IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Teach me to face., Or what the heck do I\you do with social character?
Meriss
post Apr 9 2010, 04:00 AM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,696
Joined: 17-February 07
From: Middle Sized City, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 11,025



I'm not much of a social butterfly. So I guess I don't always see the point of being a Social character achetype.

But forgive me for asking what does a Face do during a run beyond negoitating with Mr. J., schmoozing contacts for more goodies and the occaisional Q/A?

Don't just feed me skill thoughts here agng, talk to me in terms of generalities, examples and so forth. Lets get a nice discussion going. Show me your favourite builds/chars. Stories. C'mon gang! Lets really do some schooling
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Apr 9 2010, 04:09 AM
Post #2


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



The face can, research, find people to research, get other people to research, investigate, ask people people for information, infiltrate the facility through social engineering, get the passwords and accounts through social engineering, recruit an insider to help, talk the gang out of causing you problems, talk the gang into helping you, convince the star to be bribed to let you pass the checkpoint with all that cyber, convince the star that those other guys did it, and a whole bunch of other cools things to comp[letely do the run without any help from hackers, TMs, Riggers, Physads, mystic adepts, Sammies, Mages and all those other useless people.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mantis
post Apr 9 2010, 04:32 AM
Post #3


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,102
Joined: 23-August 09
From: Vancouver, Canada
Member No.: 17,538



I've got a couple of good ones for faces. We ran the Denver Missions campaign and in the first adventure you have to move this envelope from point A to B. A bunch of different people want it and try to stop you. As scripted, the team gets stopped by both the Yakuza and the triads who want the envelope. It was supposed to be either give it up or fight it out kind of scenario. Our face pulls an old jedi mind trick out of his and convinces both groups that our team is actually just decoys and someone else has the envelope. He rolled really well on the con roll and role played the encounter well too. Net result, the team continues without a fight or pissing off either group or our employers. Job well done.
The second time he pulls off this type of mojo is in a later Denver Mission where the team has to convince a gang to either join the Vory or else go back to their original sponsor gang. This whole run could have been just strong armed but the face convinces the parties involved to do whats best for the gang and finishes without a shot being fired. He only kind of pissed off the sponsor gang and that more because it was scripted that way than anything he actually did. The rest of the team felt a little superfluous on that run as they never even pulled out weapons.
So in sort, a good face can get you out of tricky situations where most others see it as a fight or flight type thing. Plus they can get you that rare gear you wanted with the insane availability.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Apr 9 2010, 04:34 AM
Post #4


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



Sadly, it's one of those roles you have to really like and even have a natural knack for. Die rolls only help a Face so much. Most of it is knowing how to talk, who to talk to, and when to talk to them. It's easily the most roleplaying-dependent character type in the game. Sure, you can rely on your dice pools for everything, but it's been my observation over the years that people who do that end up disliking the Face character type. Since, as said, it's very much a roleplaying character type.

That said, a Face does a lot more than just hanging out with contacts, securing gear, or performing legwork. While the Covert Ops Specialist will try to sneak around some guards and the Gun Bunny will try to blow them to bits, the Face will walk up to them with a charming smile and con his way past them. Possibly getting a pass or even an escort to walk him through the remaining security checkpoints if he's really good.

Just look at film and television for more examples and role models. The archetype is arguably even named after one of the best examples; Face from the A-Team. Then you have examples like Robert Redford's character in S.N.E.A.K.E.R.S. or, hell, even Bill Murray in Ghostbusters. There's a ton of examples of what a Face does and what they are. Social Skills are (in my opinion anyway) the most powerful skills in the game, trumping even magic. You just have to have a cunning player behind the character.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Apr 9 2010, 03:37 PM
Post #5


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



For the best example of a primarily social character that I can recall from fairly modern cinema -- and one that even has kind of a Shadowrun feel to it -- check out the Gone Baby Gone. That's a character that knows everybody, has connections all through his area, and found a way to make a living by talking to people and being perceptive (plus carrying a gun).

That said? Keep in mind that a Face doesn't have to be purely social, and hands-down worthless at everything else. You can still pick up a few combat skills, some driving, electronics, whatever floats your boat. Heck, there are plenty of magical types out there that pick Charisma as one of their tradition's attributes, and could sling fast-talk dice with the best of 'em.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
X-Kalibur
post Apr 9 2010, 03:51 PM
Post #6


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,579
Joined: 30-May 06
From: SoCal
Member No.: 8,626



For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tete
post Apr 9 2010, 04:03 PM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,095
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle Wa, USA
Member No.: 1,139



A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ascalaphus
post Apr 9 2010, 04:40 PM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,899
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Member No.: 17,814



Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bearclaw
post Apr 9 2010, 04:48 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,632
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Portland Oregon, USA
Member No.: 1,304



I'm replaying Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines as a Toreador. It's amazing how many situations have come up where I've just talked people into stuff, where in previous times through I had to sneak or fight.
Same with playing a face. A good face can walk past a security desk, talk their way through an ID check at a border or convince the stormtroopers that they're looking for different droids. Basically a good face wins several fights on his own by not making it a fight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samoth
post Apr 9 2010, 04:53 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 422
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Columbus, OH
Member No.: 875



Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Apr 9 2010, 04:55 PM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,328
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Apr 9 2010, 11:51 AM) *
For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?


There is an awful lot of planning that goes into the jobs the main character does as well. Excellent show for those needing an example of a shadowrun team of the mirrored shades professional types (IMHO).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
D2F
post Apr 9 2010, 05:26 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 765
Joined: 28-December 09
Member No.: 18,001



QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 9 2010, 05:53 PM) *
Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.

While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightRunner
post Apr 9 2010, 06:29 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 184
Joined: 6-January 05
From: Missouri USA
Member No.: 6,941



QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Apr 9 2010, 10:51 AM) *
For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?



QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 9 2010, 11:40 AM) *
Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.



I would argue that it is easier to complete a mission with a party full of faces than it is with a party full of sammies. Faces can just simply push aside any problem technical, physical, or magical with the clever application of BS.

In the TV examples above, social engineering is far more common than any other skillset. Even the "muscle" characters apply their social skill more than they do their martial ones. Fiona is a gun toting badass street sam in a pleasant package, but she can play the con as well as anyone else. Same with Eliot, who is an adept if I ever seen one. He is a combat monster, but more often relies, begrudgingly, on his Con skill.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wandering One
post Apr 9 2010, 06:32 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 199
Joined: 11-March 10
Member No.: 18,276



QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 9 2010, 10:26 AM) *
While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.


Well, there's also the idea that the face is the guy when he's done with the con, the security guard gives him his number and says call him anytime he needs some help again. The troll, on the other hand, has his license plate copied, sent to Knight Errant along with pictures, the guard's fired for having no cohones, and your face is on every telephone pole for two miles.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Apr 9 2010, 06:44 PM
Post #15


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



From a security standpoint, the weakest point is ALMOST ALWAYS people. A computer can be secured to the point that it will take, literally, billions of years to break into it. While any facility can be broken into eventually, properly done it will resist even organized teams of professionals from breaking in for days - and not without being noticed. Technology has a very, very low failure rate. Humans, however, have a very high one. They help their 'friends'. They share information. The hold open doors for each other. And that doesn't touch on spirits who, depending on how you play them, may be conned or encouraged just as easily, or moreso, than your average guard.

The face is a specialist who has looked at the weakest point in every organization, and trained in how to exploit it. The face can out-hack the hacker, disarm the gun bunny, cheat the mage, and seduce the adept.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sn0mm1s
post Apr 9 2010, 06:54 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 27-January 10
Member No.: 18,083



QUOTE (tete @ Apr 9 2010, 09:03 AM) *
A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.


It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Apr 9 2010, 07:06 PM
Post #17


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



As an aside, one thing you're going to realize, in order to RUN a face, is the necessity of props, technical lingo and knowledge, and contacts.

Props are things like IDs, badges, uniforms, fingerprint kits, computer IDs, etc. They range from the trivial to the VERY expensive.
Technical lingo and knowledge is required to pretend to be someone you're not - the auditor, a visitor from another office, the new employee, someone from the field, a police officer, etc.
Contacts basically fill in the gaps - who is the manager in the office. How do I get my name added as a user. Where does Joe eat dinner.

Buying Contacts is tough - 90% of them will never be useful. But the one that does become useful will save the day. My general focus is to avoid the general contacts (fixers, etc.) and focus on specialized contacts. Get a few who provide a particular good or service you'll need (gun runners, smugglers, shoemaker, corp. decker), a few who make the world run (politicians, government employees, corporate drones), and a few who have access to a lot of information (news reporters, politicians, R&D folk).

Buying knowledge can be done very muchso using the old knowsoft. Cheap and easy.

As for tools... The books barely touch on these. I don't know where the definitive source is for this. SotA64 had some good stuff, but still not comprehensive. Maybe someone should make a list of those things, really.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tete
post Apr 9 2010, 07:12 PM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,095
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle Wa, USA
Member No.: 1,139



QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 06:54 PM) *
It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.


Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sn0mm1s
post Apr 9 2010, 07:37 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 27-January 10
Member No.: 18,083



QUOTE (tete @ Apr 9 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"


Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightRunner
post Apr 9 2010, 07:47 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 184
Joined: 6-January 05
From: Missouri USA
Member No.: 6,941



QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.



What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Apr 9 2010, 07:53 PM
Post #21


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,328
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.



And this is where the GM has to go the sandbox route vs script route. Be consistent with what is there, and don't change it up if the players come up with a plan to make their lives easy (+1 Karma for a good plan I always say).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sn0mm1s
post Apr 9 2010, 07:55 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 27-January 10
Member No.: 18,083



QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 01:47 PM) *
What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?


My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Apr 9 2010, 07:57 PM
Post #23


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 01:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.

Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.

And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eratosthenes
post Apr 9 2010, 08:00 PM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 3-April 10
Member No.: 18,409



The Face shouldn't be able to just walk up to a guard, roll some Con dice, and walk past. He needs a story, and/or corroborating evidence. And besides, a good face wouldn't necessarily be trying to Con the guard, anyhow.

He'd start with someone who works there. Maybe he convinces a mid-level manager that they should bring him in for an interview, or to consult on a project. Maybe he convinces head of security that they need an upgrade to technomancer-proof their systems. Or maybe he just dresses up like one of the working stiffs, and acts like he belongs, walking in with a crowd of workers when they arrive for their shift.

It's been done a lot in real life; I recall reading an article detailing how one man (who was finally caught) had managed to waltz into many large companies, and walk out with valuable laptops on a regular basis, despite them having security in place. Or for the perfect example, look at the recent snafu with the uninvited guests at the White House. Sometimes if you just act like you belong, people think you belong.

Social Engineering also refers to setting up situations that cause someone to divulge more secret information that can be used to access their records, steal their identity, etc. or otherwise conning them into doing something they wouldn't normally do.

A high-security facility might not let a person walk in without a retinal scan, but who's to say you can't convince someone on the inside to let you in, or even bring your target out to you? Just like a gunfighter has to use tactics, and cover, instead of waltzing in a'blazing, so does the Face have to apply strategy and tactics to how exactly they'll pull off the con.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightRunner
post Apr 9 2010, 08:02 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 184
Joined: 6-January 05
From: Missouri USA
Member No.: 6,941



QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:55 PM) *
My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.


I do agree that a diverse group of shadowrunner with varying resources is the preferred way to go. But that does not change that assertion that a face can be useful in any situation. imho More so than any other archetype. Which by the way is what I and others were trying to say. Not that they are a one man wrecking crew.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 03:06 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.