[X] My Assistant

[Adam]

Thanks, Rotbart -- I was just making a post on this exact subject on the EP message boards:

Just to be clear -- the Creative Commons license isn't just about "you can redistribute it for free" -- it also means "you can remix it for free and distribute that." So if you want to translate some of it into a different language, or a different game system, or if you want to take the characters and put them in a spreadsheet format or a differently formatted PDF: not only can you do that, but when you do, you can give it to anyone you want as long as you obey the basic license info.

[tweak]

Thanks, Rotbart -- I was just making a post on this exact subject on the EP message boards:

Just to be clear -- the Creative Commons license isn't just about "you can redistribute it for free" -- it also means "you can remix it for free and distribute that." So if you want to translate some of it into a different language, or a different game system, or if you want to take the characters and put them in a spreadsheet format or a differently formatted PDF: not only can you do that, but when you do, you can give it to anyone you want as long as you obey the basic license info.

It's a lot easier to play a game when everyone has the rules. By making the game available on bittorrent, even the players that don't have money for the game can acquire the rules. So when those players find new jobs, then you already have them hooked, and they might buy Eclipse Phase product. It's nice that it actually all works out.

[The Dragon Girl]

Baen free library can tell you : if you provide reading material, on the internet, for free, the -sales- for said reading material on the physical side shoot right up, for a variety of reasons (including eyestrain from reading things that are way too interesting on monitors instead of paper ;p )

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Just to be clear -- the Creative Commons license isn't just about "you can redistribute it for free" -- it also means "you can remix it for free and distribute that." So if you want to translate some of it into a different language, or a different game system, or if you want to take the characters and put them in a spreadsheet format or a differently formatted PDF: not only can you do that, but when you do, you can give it to anyone you want as long as you obey the basic license info.

Of course, while CC covers most of that, it doesn't cover trademarks – so you should think about a trademark policy.

Otherwise, while you could take the content of EP and translate it, you wouldn't be allowed to distribute it as "Eclipse Phase".

[Adam]

That's true; we've been lax about that because it has yet to be really necessary.

[Of course, you can't actually trademark the title of a single book, just the graphical depiction of that name, or the name/depiction of an entire brand ... which is what Eclipse Phase is.]

[KnightRunner]

It's a lot easier to play a game when everyone has the rules. By making the game available on bittorrent, even the players that don't have money for the game can acquire the rules. So when those players find new jobs, then you already have them hooked, and they might buy Eclipse Phase product. It's nice that it actually all works out.

So much this. I have downloaded many rpg books, just to "check them out". If I like them, I buy a copy, often both digital and physical. I prefer physical but a pdf is easier to go unnoticed at work than a stack of gaming books. If I do not like the book I do not buy one, of course I do not use the illegitimate download anymore either, cause... well, I did not like it. I can easily say that access to downloads has caused me to buy more books than I would otherwise have. The only exception to this would be a well known company that no longer provides their books in .pdf. Now I just used the illegitimate downloads instead of a purchased copy. In this case that company actually lost sales that I would have given them if they had not taken away my option.

[Grexul]

Baen free library can tell you : if you provide reading material, on the internet, for free, the -sales- for said reading material on the physical side shoot right up, for a variety of reasons (including eyestrain from reading things that are way too interesting on monitors instead of paper ;p )

QFT!

Reading a computer screen for hours on end can't compare.

Grexul

[Adam]

E-ink readers FTW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(Sadly, most RPG material is organized/presented in a way that most e-ink readers don't work well with it...)

[BookWyrm]

To Everyone here on Dumpshock, moderators and fellow posters alike;

I wish to formally and officially appologise for my previous posting about rumor-mongering on this subject, which caused my post to be repoted and the thread to be locked down. I have recieved an official warning and I am NOW fully aware of the consequences of my prior actions. The post was made in equal amounts of disgust, anger and frustration which had been fueled by events in my personal life before making the offensive post, and I had no cause to take said frustrations out on the members of this board. I have already sent an appology to the moderators and currently await summary judgement. I can only hope that my brief moment of stupidity does not cause me to be banned from these boards permanently.

As an act of contrition, I will take a self-imposed banishment of one full week, starting at the posting of this message.

Again, for those whom I have offended, and any rules I have bent or broken, I sincerely appologise.

BookWyrm

[Delarn]

Of course, while CC covers most of that, it doesn't cover trademarks – so you should think about a trademark policy.

Otherwise, while you could take the content of EP and translate it, you wouldn't be allowed to distribute it as "Eclipse Phase".

So someone removing all the graphics and the formation to the PDF and calling It Eclipse Phase Redux will be able to use that name ? I mean Eclipse Phase has been TM but Eclipse Phase Redux is not the TM.

[Adam]

So someone removing all the graphics and the formation to the PDF and calling It Eclipse Phase Redux will be able to use that name ? I mean Eclipse Phase has been TM but Eclipse Phase Redux is not the TM.

Consult your lawyer. The content of the book is all CC-licensed, but trademark usage is a different beast altogether. Creative Commons is about copyrightable material, not trademarkable material.

[Delarn]

Consult your lawyer. The content of the book is all CC-licensed, but trademark usage is a different beast altogether. Creative Commons is about copyrightable material, not trademarkable material.

I'm not willing to do anything like that. I was just asking.

[Adam]

I'm not willing to do anything like that. I was just asking.

There you go then. Use the Creative Commons-licensed content within the bounds of that license -- and extracting the text from the PDF and distributing that extracted text is fair game under the CC license -- but don't use the trademark unless you're willing to take the risk or consult a lawyer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nylanfs]

Or are a lawyer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Delarn]

There you go then. Use the Creative Commons-licensed content within the bounds of that license -- and extracting the text from the PDF and distributing that extracted text is fair game under the CC license -- but don't use the trademark unless you're willing to take the risk or consult a lawyer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dread Moores]

To be clear: Its not the color that makes M&M such a great book.

BlueMax

No, but that gorgeous Warhammer on the front doesn't hurt.

[kzt]

I have still not gotten a reply from CGL over the Ctulutech books that I paid for and they never shipped.

[Saint Sithney]

E-ink readers FTW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(Sadly, most RPG material is organized/presented in a way that most e-ink readers don't work well with it...)

But thanks to the CC licensing, a body could fix that with sufficient effort.



BTW, drama bans are for sux. Bring back Frank. Unless he got banned for actions unseen, he never really jumped out of bounds...
Also, BookWyrm, forgiveness is achieved by atonement, not by withdrawal. If a week is what you need to calm down, so be it, but don't disappear on our account.

[Adam]

But thanks to the CC licensing, a body could fix that with sufficient effort.

Posthuman may well do some Kickstarter/ransom drives to fund those sort of things, when we are legally able to do so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shrike30]

As an act of contrition, I will take a self-imposed banishment of one full week, starting at the posting of this message.

I think you did fine at the "apology" level.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I mean Eclipse Phase has been TM but Eclipse Phase Redux is not the TM.

Read the linked trademark policies.

And no, you can't, that would violate the trademark blatantly – even Eclipse Case would.

[Stahlseele]

thought i'd link to this immensely usefull posting:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30621

[knasser]

Basically, what Adam is doing, is proving once again, that piracy is not a big problem, if your product is actually worth being bought . .
I had no intentions on getting eclipse phase, but i support things like this.

A case of one, where we don't know what would have happened otherwise, does not prove anything. Eclipse Phase is an excellent game. Perhaps it is selling well in spite of the free PDF. I bought it in PDF before I even realised there was a free version (though I would have bought it anyway both to support the product a product I liked and because I want to be notified of updates by DriveThruRPG). What if you compared it instead to something like Manual of the Planes which was sold as a PDF. You're suggesting that if this were given away free it wouldn't impact on WotC's sales of the book generally, but I think that unlikely. I know a number of people who pirate RPG books instead of purchasing them. They even regard this as some sort of moral victory.

Factors that you haven't controlled for in stating that the success of Eclipse Phase proves anything.

That it's a core rule book. - For example, I purchase things that will need to be passed around as physical books. Things I just want to read myself, e.g. Ghost Cartels, I buy as PDFs. I therefore bought Eclipse Phase as a book. If they produce, for example, an "Eclipse Phase Monsters" book (silly example), I'll just have that as a PDF. Meaning a lost sale for Posthuman.

That technology is progressing and that we are in a transitional phase (when are we not?). People still prefer physical books for now, but tha ttide will shift. I already prefer PDFs for many reasons and when I and my friends can have a light tablet form device that can handle these sorts of PDFs easily (see the iPad thread elsewhere) I'm going to have even less reason to purchase the physical books. Despite a few very vocal people who like to pronounce the superiority of physical books at ever opportunity, digital is the way things are going in the not too distance future. As that happens, the business model of seeding free copies to stimulate purchase of physical copies will get hit hard. The advantage to the publisher of PDF sales is enormous - no storage, no printing, no fiddly trying to estimate how many you'll sell when deciding on the size of print runs, no cut given to the local retailer. But vast though those savings are, they don't scale as well as free. Also, most publishers have yet to really take advantage of the power of digital books. When they do so, the advantages of digital over paper will grow further.

You have no Eclipse Phase that wasn't given away free with which to compare the Eclipse Phase which was. Maybe they would have sold a lot more PDFs (they were pretty cheap). Who knows? Adam may have a feel and will probably comment on all this, but what you don't have is "proof". As I say, Eclipse Phase is very good and very new. Your argument might be the equivalent of watching Usain Bolt eat a couple of cheeseburgers and then sprint past you and concluding: "Hey look - this proves cheeseburgers don't slow you down."

As I say, I know people who have quite a lot of RPG material that they have explicitly pirated instead of buying. If you want to talk music and movies, then it's a hundred times more. That is direct harm to the industry that I can see first hand.

Aside from all this, it is the publishers of Eclipse Phase choice to distribute it freely. That doesn't in anyway lessen other publishers right to choose differently.

K.

[Ol' Scratch]

On yet another aside, is there a forum similar to this one where people can discuss Eclipse Phase? I bought it a few days ago and it's making my head swim. I'd like to try and puzzle out some things about it and maybe even find a place to play it online.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eclipse+phase+forum&l=1