[X] My Assistant

[Warlordtheft]

I didn't say the term was strange--I said it was not cut-and-dry fact. You have your interpretation of it. Others have theirs. All I'm saying is that not everyone will agree that "extreme embezzlement" is the proper label for what happened. Some may feel it is completely appropriate, and that's their right (and to be clear, I'm not going to argue that point one way or the other). But that does not suddenly turn a subjective term into an objective one.

Jason H.

I think what jason is trying to point out is that what happened given the structure of the company was an accounting issue/oversight issue. There is a good chance this is the case, as Loren has yet to be hauled off to jail, or taken to court by his business partners.

[tete]

Really? I'd heard that Seattle 2072 was amazing. You're saying alot of it is Cut and pasted? Hurm.....

If you loved reading the first Seattle book you'll love 2072. I can see how someone could think of it as cut and pasted but its more like updated. For example you find out that the street talk about one restaurant was right. There actually were Nagas in the basement and it caused some trouble. I thought it was awesome because Steve took the old street talk and decided what rumors were true and gave you an update on what happened. Its really the only 4e book I own that I have enjoyed cover to cover more or less.

[Abschalten]

Seattle 2072 is seriously getting all this love? I have to say I was pretty bored and disappointed with it. I understand it was more or less the same format as the original Seattle Sourcebook, but you could have called it "Mafia and Yakuza Places." Seemed like every other entry in the book had something to do with the mob or the yaks. Makes for an extremely boring book. Seriously, could they have picked two more OVERUSED organized crime outfits and made them even more so?

[Ancient History]

Maybe you could start a Book Club: Seattle 2072 thread and we could discuss it there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[nezumi]

What about Jewish Jesus?

Aka Adam Jury (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Don't know if he's Jewish though. Never thought to ask.)

(relatively) More seriously: How does that work? Is the initial license payment a prepayment of royalties?

My understanding as someone in no way involved with the industry, is Topps generally looks to charge a hefty fee for the license, and in exchange, the publishing company gets to write rule books, novels, etc., and publish and sell everything with the Shadowrun name on it (current or previous). This is just what I've gathered from watching these forums, not from any insider knowledge. CLG was established specifically to run Shadowrun in '07, but it was a part of In Media Res, which had already been around for 3-4 years. Whether Topps asked for cash up front, or later in the life, is not clear to me, but IMR had the capital available that Topps knew they would get their money.

Post-Human Studios is pretty new. From my understanding, it's about a year old? It's not running a lot of products (I'm only aware of one RPG), and given their age, they're probably still paying off startup debts. They just won't have the capital to buy Shadowrun, at least not for a few more years.

I'd guess that the Shadowrun license is probably a seven digit number, so it's not exactly pocket change.

Again though, this is all speculation on my part. All knowledgable parties have worked very hard to keep the real numbers close to their collective chests.

If so [begin "rampant speculation:"], if Ira Friedman, VP of Licensing and Publication, or whoever makes these decisions, might make the decision to forgo a large initial liquidity event in return for greater profit over the life of the license.

Usually they'd do that if they had collateral. The question is, firstly, does Post-Human have the collateral to cover that sort of debt, and secondly, would they want to accept it, being still a small shop, running now two systems simultaneously barely months out from under CGL, knowing that if they fail, it swallows up the entire shop and may seriously harm both IPs? Those aren't questions you or I are in a position to answer, or really, properly speculate about.

Hey, let's start a dumpshock letter writing campaign. You know, the kind with paper, ink, and a stamp. Tell Topps your opinion of who should get or keep the license:

As you pointed out, it's run by Eisner. That means they're more likely to worry about the bottom dollar than about keeping alive hopes and dreams (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Does PostHuman WANT the SR license? Are they big enough to handle it? Are they big enough to absorb that debt and any possible problems down the road? If they don't, that ends the discussion right there.

Like I said, Topps did well by me. I think they recognize the value of trusting it to passionate writers. But they recognize that because those writers make a product that moves. They recognize the value of people who are eager to make a profit, which is why it ended up with Mr. Coleman in the first place.

[Dread Moores]

What about Jewish Jesus?

If you're not aware, White Jesus is a nickname for Adam Jury. Hence the reference of it with regards to Posthuman.

Edit: Or of course, nezumi could just scoop me. Meanie. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Adam]

I am not Jewish.

Also, Posthuman Studios (No StudlyCaps, no hyphens (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) doesn't have any debt currently. Woot!

(This will probably change shortly, but your support in exchange for sexy intriguing Eclipse Phase materials will prevent that us from staying that way for long.)

[emouse]

Right now I'm dubious of anything that CGL is about to put out. I'm disinclined to purchase from CGL for two reasons, outrage at the accusations and fear of a loss of quality. One of those you can't do anything about and I respect that. However if things are as rosy as you state they are you could share with us a look at the quality of the work being done. Drop some names we might recognize but not be aware of. Let us look at some of their previous work and show us why you think the line is in such good hands.

Seriously, at this point, the only answer is wait and see. We'll know in relatively short order if CGL will retain the license, and if CGL does get new stuff out, we'll be able to get a look or reviews of it ahead of time.

[emouse]

Come on, is the fact that CGL is putting out quality product all that's good about the company?

They're paying some of the freelancers for material that hasn't been published yet?

How well would 'good news' about charity go over with the company still in financial trouble?

[augmentin]

If you're not aware, White Jesus is a nickname for Adam Jury. Hence the reference of it with regards to Posthuman.

Ah, my mistake. And here I thought I had a clever response. So, let's review:

1) Everyone loves Adam Jury
2) Everyone loves his layout work
3) Everyone loves what he's done with the SR IP
4) Everyone loves the classy way he's handled this scandalous situation
5) All of the current and former SR freelancers and line developers respect him
6) Evidently, he looks good in a swimsuit
7) Evidently, he's also pretty as a princess
8 ) Evidently, he's the Caucasian version of the Lion of Judah
9) His company has no debt
10) We get Rob Boyle and Brian Cross, too.

Soooo....why wouldn't we want to see the license in Posthuman hands again?

[augmentin]

I'd guess that the Shadowrun license is probably a seven digit number, so it's not exactly pocket change.

Does PostHuman WANT the SR license? Are they big enough to handle it? Are they big enough to absorb that debt and any possible problems down the road? If they don't, that ends the discussion right there.

Like I said, Topps did well by me. I think they recognize the value of trusting it to passionate writers. But they recognize that because those writers make a product that moves. They recognize the value of people who are eager to make a profit, which is why it ended up with Mr. Coleman in the first place.

Trollman quoted a mid-6 figure number, but he's permabanned again, so we'll never get the chance to verify those numbers.

RE: profit motive. I'd venture to guess Jury et. al. are just as happy to make a profit as anyone else. In the case of what Coleman is alleged to have done, I'll refer to Ghandi's seven deadly social sins:
Wealth without Work
Pleasure without Conscience
Science without Humanity
Knowledge without Character
Politics without Principle
Commerce without Morality
Worship without Sacrifice
It's that "without Morality" part that gets you and I would argue is bad for business. Of course, that this point, they're only allegations. EDIT: Not relevant to the current discussion.

This post has been edited by augmentin: Apr 13 2010, 05:04 PM

[otakusensei]

You have to understand the problems you present in this post, though. Here, and in other places, the basic tenor has been "In the absence of other information, we have to assume the worst." I'm not sure why that is, but I'll set that aside for a moment. Then you ask for names of people working on products, after saying that you are poised to assume the worst.

It may be protective of me, but I have no desire to expose the freelancers who are working for me to a bunch of negativity. I've already seen it happen, and it upsets me greatly. There are freelancers who have a lot of experience with SR, and freelancers who are in the early stages of working for SR. These are people who love SR, who play SR, and who want to find more ways to be involved with SR, which I find totally understandable. Many of them have said a thing or two in the forums--take a look at the Who's Who on Dumpshock thread for some of their names. Some of them have been given poor receptions here and on other forums--not for any work that they have done, but simply because they are new. As I said, that makes me reluctant to just throw names around, because it's not fair to them. If you have misgivings about who is writing Shadowrun, take it out on me. I'm more comfortable with that.

There will, of course, be previews of products as they are ready. Before all this happened, Corp Guide was in its final proofing stages. The great majority of what needs to be rewritten for that book is done, so I'll work to get previews up as soon as possible.

As far as the release schedule goes, there are many, many reasons products get delayed. Finances are only one of them. Missed deadlines, slow editors (I only say that because I was one sometimes), emergencies on one project taking time from another project, and real life interference all play a role in getting projects out, and all of those have played a role in occasionally delaying Catalyst's production schedule. In recent months, though, Running Wild streeted Sept. 25, Seattle 2072 streeted Nov. 10, Vice streeted on Feb. 23; and Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was on the verge of hitting its street date when the current troubles held it up. In the PDF realm, we had 3 Missions released in recent months, along with 10 Jackpointers, 10 Gangs, and some reprints. Is it the ideal pace? Not yet. Are things coming out fairly regularly? I think so, and I hope to get beyond the current problems and return to regular releases.

Jason H.

I'm sorry if I sounded too negative with my last post, I was only trying to be clear about my feelings. To be honest with you my post was more directed at Shadowrun as a game line and less at CGL as a company. Personally I've passed judgment on CGL, I know that's not exactly fair but that's the way I feel. That doesn't reflect at all on my feeling for Shadowrun as a game, but right now CGL is in charge of it. To that end I want to set all my bad feelings and animosity aside and take a good look at what you are saying you see.

I'm sure there are some people with hurt feelings that are going to say things that they wouldn't in polite company. This is Dumpshock, it would be uncomfortable if they didn't. But at some point the material I'm asking about will be published, with names and everything, and I don't know at this point what to think. What is going on? Who is doing it? Does it suck? How is Shadowrun?

That's all I want to know. Leave the controversy out of the next few posts and give us some meat to chew. We're hear because we all love Shadowrun and I want to know how it's doing. Not "press release" doing, but in depth "I've been trading posts with the line dev" doing. It is my honest hope that interesting and exciting things are going on and that I can look forward to the products that are coming, whoever they come from. Right now you're the man in that respect and I feel like you're playing your cards so close to your chest that we're starting to get worried about the game and not just the current company publishing it.

[RobertB]

Thats why i keep buying powerball tickets...175 million on wednesday and I can own the whole shooting match by friday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You know what's funny? I've been having the same sort of daydream/fantasy. Win the Powerball, come in like a white knight, scoop up the ownership rights to B-Tech and Shadowrun with a well-conceived business plan and tons of operating capital, and sail off into the sunset with thousands of great fans to continue building worlds by gamers/for gamers. (If I can steal a famous byline.)

Robert (aka, Spanner)

[Prime Mover]

Picked up my ticket today...just in case.

[augmentin]

You know what's funny? I've been having the same sort of daydream/fantasy. Win the Powerball, come in like a white knight, scoop up the ownership rights to B-Tech and Shadowrun with a well-conceived business plan and tons of operating capital, and sail off into the sunset with thousands of great fans to continue building worlds by gamers/for gamers. (If I can steal a famous byline.)

Robert (aka, Spanner)

If you win, promise to bring back the metaplots?

[JM Hardy]

I'm sorry if I sounded too negative with my last post, I was only trying to be clear about my feelings. To be honest with you my post was more directed at Shadowrun as a game line and less at CGL as a company. Personally I've passed judgment on CGL, I know that's not exactly fair but that's the way I feel. That doesn't reflect at all on my feeling for Shadowrun as a game, but right now CGL is in charge of it. To that end I want to set all my bad feelings and animosity aside and take a good look at what you are saying you see.

I'm sure there are some people with hurt feelings that are going to say things that they wouldn't in polite company. This is Dumpshock, it would be uncomfortable if they didn't. But at some point the material I'm asking about will be published, with names and everything, and I don't know at this point what to think. What is going on? Who is doing it? Does it suck? How is Shadowrun?

That's all I want to know. Leave the controversy out of the next few posts and give us some meat to chew. We're hear because we all love Shadowrun and I want to know how it's doing. Not "press release" doing, but in depth "I've been trading posts with the line dev" doing. It is my honest hope that interesting and exciting things are going on and that I can look forward to the products that are coming, whoever they come from. Right now you're the man in that respect and I feel like you're playing your cards so close to your chest that we're starting to get worried about the game and not just the current company publishing it.

I realize that things will come out with people's names on it, and that's fine. At that point you can react to what people have actually written, which is what any author expects. That reaction may be positive, or it may be negative, but it will be based on something that exists, which is fair. The problem I have is that if I put out names now, there will be people reacting to just names, or to reputations, or to résumés (or even perceived résumés). Given that I have already seen people who are good writers, people who are energetic and enthusiastic about the game and have good knowledge of it, be treated poorly on various forums, I'm not willing to make them the subject of a conversation about whether Shadowrun has a future. That's not fair of me to push the weight of the future onto them.

I've mentioned the products that I've been working on. In the past two weeks or so, I've written 20k words for these products. Other writers have submitted another 20k words or so worth of material. I've looked a lot of it over, and I'm happy with some of the plot hooks that have been built in, with the sense the writers have of the importance of giving players something to chew on in every section. I've seen two new pieces of fiction, and they have a great energy about them. I'm looking forward to setting them free.

I'm afraid there are certain cards I'll keep close to my vest, though. First, it's not a bad idea to keep some things secret until it's the right time to reveal them (what is Attitude about, anyway?). Second, much as I'd like to leave the controversy behind for a few posts, experience has shown that I can't do that. Just because I might want controversy to take a break for a time doesn't mean it will, so I have to keep writing posts in that light.

Jason H.

[otakusensei]

I realize that things will come out with people's names on it, and that's fine. At that point you can react to what people have actually written, which is what any author expects. That reaction may be positive, or it may be negative, but it will be based on something that exists, which is fair. The problem I have is that if I put out names now, there will be people reacting to just names, or to reputations, or to résumés (or even perceived résumés). Given that I have already seen people who are good writers, people who are energetic and enthusiastic about the game and have good knowledge of it, be treated poorly on various forums, I'm not willing to make them the subject of a conversation about whether Shadowrun has a future. That's not fair of me to push the weight of the future onto them.

I've mentioned the products that I've been working on. In the past two weeks or so, I've written 20k words for these products. Other writers have submitted another 20k words or so worth of material. I've looked a lot of it over, and I'm happy with some of the plot hooks that have been built in, with the sense the writers have of the importance of giving players something to chew on in every section. I've seen two new pieces of fiction, and they have a great energy about them. I'm looking forward to setting them free.

I'm afraid there are certain cards I'll keep close to my vest, though. First, it's not a bad idea to keep some things secret until it's the right time to reveal them (what is Attitude about, anyway?). Second, much as I'd like to leave the controversy behind for a few posts, experience has shown that I can't do that. Just because I might want controversy to take a break for a time doesn't mean it will, so I have to keep writing posts in that light.

Jason H.

Thanks for speaking plainly on this. I'm not happy with the response but I respect your position. When new material is released I won't be the first person to the register; but like I already stated, I wouldn't have been for other reasons. I'll miss being able to get the Preorder+PDF combo without a concern about the material I'm paying for. That arrangement was seriously the best setup I've seen for purchasing new RPG books, and CatalystRED was a great idea to allow me to simultaneously support my FLGS. IT's a shame how much we've lost and how much potential hasn't panned out.

I still sick of "wait and see", but at least I have Shadowrun games to play each week. If this had all come down last year when I didn't have an SR group I would be bouncing off the walls right now.

[nezumi]

Trollman quoted a mid-6 figure number, but he's permabanned again, so we'll never get the chance to verify those numbers.

But I believe he mentioned it was speculation. What he did quote was $600k stolen, and saying then that the actual value of the license would clearly be larger than that. I believe it was him specifically who speculated $1M, but again, it was just speculation. I haven't seen anyone give a hard number, and several people have said specifically they know the hard number, but are not at liberty to share. So all we can say is...

$600k was lost from this line + battletech over 3 years, and that was not significant enough to sink the line (at least not yet!) Which suggestins that that is probably not MORE than the value of the license, and likely significantly less.


Don't get me wrong, I think we'd all be happy for Adam to take it over. However:
1) No one has asked Adam if HE wants to. He has a new baby to work on, remember.
2) No one asked Adam if, right now, he is able to take on that amount of work.
3) No one asked Adam if he is able to pay what Topps is asking.

I mean it's nice to speculate that Adam will swoop in and save the line from dark strangers. But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

[JM Hardy]

Thanks for speaking plainly on this. I'm not happy with the response but I respect your position. When new material is released I won't be the first person to the register; but like I already stated, I wouldn't have been for other reasons. I'll miss being able to get the Preorder+PDF combo without a concern about the material I'm paying for. That arrangement was seriously the best setup I've seen for purchasing new RPG books, and CatalystRED was a great idea to allow me to simultaneously support my FLGS. IT's a shame how much we've lost and how much potential hasn't panned out.

I still sick of "wait and see", but at least I have Shadowrun games to play each week. If this had all come down last year when I didn't have an SR group I would be bouncing off the walls right now.

To be honest, I'd love to have something to say besides "wait and see." There's plenty of frustration to go around! I'd love to have new products out immediately, and to have hard copies flowing like water. We don't have they yet, though, so all I can do is work toward that point.

Jason H.

[Adam]

But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

Yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Seriously, at this point, the only answer is wait and see. We'll know in relatively short order if CGL will retain the license, and if CGL does get new stuff out, we'll be able to get a look or reviews of it ahead of time.

Honestly IMO the 4e material has overall been of dubious quality in rules quality, production value, fluff etc. Maybe a change up of writers will suit me better.

[knasser]

But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

I had him down as an AI of some sort, a lá Emergence. I presumed the origin software was some sort of graphics layout package.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Demonseed Elite]

I had him down as an AI of some sort, a lá Emergence. I presumed the origin software was some sort of graphics layout package.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Dr.Rockso]

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Ooh, nice one

[Patrick Goodman]

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

That explains so many things, Jay....