Blood of Kali/K-10, Is it worth it to use? Options

[Patrick the Gnom...]

We all know the potential penalties of K-10. Permanent berserk, auto death in the eyes of the game world. 18S damage at the end of the duration, unresisted. Both minuses that make the idea of using K-10 risky to say the least. But the benefits are great as well. +3 to Body and Agility, +6 to Strength, +1 to Willpower and, greatest of all, +3 Initiative Passes, not to mention Pain Resistance 3. So is it possible to reap the benefits of this combat drug without being struck down by the penalties?

My first question is about the Berserk consequence of K-10. K-10 causes the user to automatically go berserk in a manner similar to Bear rage. Bear rage states that the raging character will go into a rage and "go after" his attackers. Does this mean the Berserker retains some modicum of control over his own actions? Rather than losing all mental faculty, is it possible that the character simply becomes overcome by rage and is forced to take actions that will harm his opponent without being forced to abandon all semblance of civilization, dropping his sophisticated tools in favor of fists? Basically, can a Berserking character use a gun, sword, or magic?

Is it possible to rectify 18S unresisted? Obviously the first and most obvious answer to this is Regeneration, but not all of us are shapeshifters and not many of us want to deal with the side effects of Immortal Flower. The answer may not exist, but is there another way to deal with 18S damage without Regeneration?

The test at the end of the Berserk duration is an Edge test. Is it possible to spend Edge on this test?

And my final question is, is it worth it? Is there a character build that can take advantage of K-10 without being better served by some other method? Is there a reason to justify a risk of permanent Berserk?

[Dumori]

The test at the end of the Berserk duration is an Edge test. Is it possible to spend Edge on this test?

And my final question is, is it worth it? Is there a character build that can take advantage of K-10 without being better served by some other method? Is there a reason to justify a risk of permanent Berserk?

Well you cant take edge on edge tests.
And well for 15 bp you can make it so you can pop k-10 like candy. Though its iffy just take immunity k-10 its man-made and immunity stops all ILL effects.

[kanislatrans]

The only characterI ever made to even get near K-10 is an Elven former UCAS army Lt. from chicago. He got caught behind the wall and had a roach eat his arm. He keeps a shot of K-10 in an auto injector 'cause...
" The next time I see those bastards,I'm gonna eat their arms!!"
He also has a bad Longhaul addiction
" I can feel 'em watching me when I sleep!"(crazy grin)

I haven't tried to build a repeat K-10 user but may try that out later.....it sound crazy if it would work....

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well you cant take edge on edge tests.

Of course you can, since you are only prohibited of spending more than one Point of Edge on a single test.
And the edge test itself does not cost you a Point of Edge.

[Dumori]

Hummm I sure i've read that you can't specifically.

[Summerstorm]

The whole "unresisted" thing in itself is a bit weird for me. Ok, it is supposed to wreck you up near (or beyond) death (as a normal human), but to just say: Na, no matter who you are, no matter what you have only the sum of your boxes count (and existing wounds) is a bit strange.

I would just say: Whenever something is stated as "unresisted" make it ~30% more and let them resist. Say K-10 would be 24 Stun but you could roll it down it becomes more viable for extreme (edge+body) characters. but still is insane enough to not let them do it too often.

In real life there are people crashing harder or easier too, why not in Shadowrun? Let them enjoy their stats/qualities/luck with their dice/whatever. I don't like having a blunt effect without giving a chance to change it. Yes, i let them even soak damage against a aimed headshot with Ex-Ex and 7 hits. Just telling them: Boom, headshot you are dead is just not nice.

Back to the topic: weirdly i think a massivly cybered troll/ork has a nice chance for using it. (Although not much of a reason except the speed). Against all intuition: Cyberlimbs/Torso gives more hitboxes even against withdrawel-shock (which should hit harder since he has less meat, fat and blood). And an Paineditor could alleviate any effect till you can get "repairs".

[tagz]

Well you cant take edge on edge tests.
And well for 15 bp you can make it so you can pop k-10 like candy. Though its iffy just take immunity k-10 its man-made and immunity stops all ILL effects.

I'd have to say your wrong on both points I'm afraid.

Edge use prohibits SPENDING edge more then once on a single test. The example we have here is an edge test and does not spend any edge. Therefore a character is perfectly within their rights to spend an edge on the test. I also looked up all mentions of edge in the index and found nothing to support that you cannot spend edge on an edge test.

Immunity does not filter out parts of a toxin, it blocks the entire thing. That is the RAI to my understanding. That it has the word "ill" in there is a misnomer. It seems to me it was clearly missed in editing when they updated the book from SR4 to SR4A, as before the inclusion of capsule rounds in Arsenal there wasn't a lot of consideration as to resisting the effects of drugs, and they missed it on the Anniversary rewrite.

If you want to be a stickler about it, then yea, by RAW it says "ill" and is open to GM interpretation of what that is, but it's clear that you'd be doing it for exploiting purposes and nothing else. It's similar to SR4's spirits that had Reaction multiplied instead of added with a set amount. The result was ridiculous and anyone with any real judgment could see that they should add instead. Of course, I'm sure some players and GM's argued to keep it, mostly as they likely wanted to use that mistake to their advantage despite it being detrimental to playability.

I guess just ask yourself if you only follow the letter of the law, or if you care about it's spirit.

[pbangarth]

Well you cant take edge on edge tests.

I don't see anything about that in SR4A.

And well for 15 bp you can make it so you can pop k-10 like candy. Though its iffy just take immunity k-10 its man-made and immunity stops all ILL effects.

Has this been discussed on DS before? Is this a Quality... I can't find it? Why would immunity be selective, and not make the character immune to all effects, including the good ones. effectively nullifying the drug as a tool? I see in the description of the critter power that immunity stops "attacks", but if it is the genetic modification, that covers all effects, doesn't it?

[tagz]

I don't see anything about that in SR4A.

Has this been discussed on DS before? Is this a Quality... I can't find it? Why would immunity be selective, and not make the character immune to all effects, including the good ones. effectively nullifying the drug as a tool? I see in the description of the critter power that immunity stops "attacks", but if it is the genetic modification, that covers all effects, doesn't it?

Check under "N" in the qualities. It's listed as Natural Immunity. SR4A p 92.

[Ol' Scratch]

"If Natural Immunity is purchased at the full 15 BP level, the character is immune to a single synthetic (artificially created) disease or toxin."

It doesn't say "immune to the negative effects of a single disease or toxin." The fact that it latter says "with no ill effects" is just a reiteration, not a 'limitation' on what the quality affects.

[pbangarth]

Check under "N" in the qualities. It's listed as Natural Immunity. SR4A p 92.

Thanks. Search-fu glitched.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

K, so it sounds like Edge is spendable on the Edge test, the only real way to deal with 18 Stun without Regneration is to bite it with a Pain Editor and deal with the 8 physical, and Natural Immunity prevents all effects of K-10, not just the negative ones. Ok, that answers my middle 2 questions and something I hadn't thought of, but what about the effects of Berserk? Is there RAW on the exact level to which a character berserks, or is it a GM call? And do you guys think there's a build where it's really worth it to try and run with the advantages of K-10 and mitigate the penalties as best you can?

[pbangarth]

Sooner or later your PC goes berserk permanently. I don't see any way around that except limiting the usage to however many points of Edge you want to spend. I suppose careful management of that resource could keep you going for a while. Same for the WIL +CHA Test(3) to avoid going berserk. What, once or twice a session (or whatever the refresh period your GM allocates)? Would it be worth setting aside a couple of Edge points to keep you safe, in exchange for all those benefits in combat?

Maybe. Put 10 or 20 more BP into Edge at chargen, and that would be more than compensated by the bonuses of the drug.

Oh... wait a minute. What about addiction tests?

[tagz]

K-10 seems like an "OH SH--!" item to me. Everyday use and you're going to get burned, sooner or later the damage or the edge test will catch up to you.

That said though, there are things that can make it less deadly.

Carry Dopadrine on you at all times. Cancels berserk for the duration of it's effects, so good when you need self control and want to use k-10. There is a -1 to all physical actions, but the bump from K-10 should still give you an edge in most areas. You could even speedball the K-10 and the Dope together to take at the same time. Also, if you become permanently berserked the Dopadrine can keep you sane... for a little while, but that might be enough for a GM's mercy "experimental procedure" or whatnot. Try and keep that dope in your system all the time though and you'll burn out in no time.

Hit yourself with a slap patch just before the duration of K-10 expires. I bet you could talk your GM into letting you buy some that have a 30 second delay before they kick in. Can make a stabilization test if you overflowed (cause you likely didn't pop K-10 at a sowing circle, you popped it at combat where there's other sources of damage) and the stim one can get you up and moving long enough to get out of a dangerous situation.

Consider the "Will To Live" quality as extra damage overflow boxes might be very helpful to a PC that uses K-10 regularly.

Cyberlimbs grant an extra hit box per limb. That will help with that high 18S DV and not dying.

Keep the team mage close and make sure he knows the heal spell and the stabilize spell.

All I can think of at the moment.

[Saint Sithney]

Hummm I sure i've read that you can't specifically.

There are instances where the rules call for an Edge test where you can not spend Edge on the test, but K-10 isn't one of them.

The problem with allowing Body to soak unresisted stun is that the damage is supposed to be neurological. Though, if a drug is less effective on a bigger char, then the damage should be less acute... But, at least in the case of K-10, duration isn't affected by body.

[Emy]

About K-10: what about Dopadrine? Automatically ends Berserk when taken.

Even if you can't convince your GM to have that end your indefinite-duration rage from failing the Edge test, you could always take the Dopadrine to cancel your berserk before the K-10 ends. By my reading, you make that Edge test if you're still berserk when the K-10 wears off and you take 18S. If you're not still berserk then, no problem! You just have to not die from 18S. And deal with the addiction penalties from mixing drugs.

Posted this in the wrong thread, though I see tagz was nice enough to mention Dopadrine here.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Sooner or later your PC goes berserk permanently. I don't see any way around that except limiting the usage to however many points of Edge you want to spend. I suppose careful management of that resource could keep you going for a while. Same for the WIL +CHA Test(3) to avoid going berserk. What, once or twice a session (or whatever the refresh period your GM allocates)? Would it be worth setting aside a couple of Edge points to keep you safe, in exchange for all those benefits in combat?

Maybe. Put 10 or 20 more BP into Edge at chargen, and that would be more than compensated by the bonuses of the drug.

Oh... wait a minute. What about addiction tests?

I don't think the PC gets a Will+Cha test to avoid Berserk, the drug's description says it happens automatically. They'd definitely have to save at least an edge point or two for the Berserk tests but with potentially 12 dice to the test it's fairly unlikely for them to not get a single hit. As for addiction...K-10 would I suppose be a stimulant with no listed physical dependency so a Willpower + Logic test with a threshold of 2 for a mental addiction. It's not a recreational drug by any sense of the term so unless the character was in combat every week it seems like they'd be able to avoid becoming addicted. Are there any more addiction rules that the ones listed in SR4a? These seem pretty highly dependant on the GM.

[Sengir]

The only use I found for K-10 so far was loading it into capsule rounds or injection darts. But what is nice to have when things get rough is a tooth compartment with Kamikaze.

[Harbin]

...What possible use would shooting someone with K10 have? Any other more legitimate method of killing them would be less expensive and you could probably pay someone off to kill them rather than loading k10 into injection shots.

I mean, if you managed to dose someone with it without them noticing somehow, that would work, but shooting them with it? Them suddenly gaining superspeed is not on my list of 'oh hey that seems like a great idea'

My perception of someone who uses K-10 is that mundane runner who just got cornered in a corp facility, and auto-injected himself with it.

[Sengir]

...What possible use would shooting someone with K10 have?

Chaos. There are few things which cause more chaos and distraction than one or two corpsec guys turning into raving madmen and starting to tear their colleagues into shreds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

Kanada Ten's legacy will last a long, long time.

[Harbin]

Chaos. There are few things which cause more chaos and distraction than one or two corpsec guys turning into raving madmen and starting to tear their colleagues into shreds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But berserk in the bear description says that they would still retain enough of their mental faculty to go after you first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But berserk in the bear description says that they would still retain enough of their mental faculty to go after you first.

Ahhh... But if you use an Aerosol Grenade mixed with DMSO and K-10, and then you drop it into a group of ordinary people, you would then have a pretty good instant distrtaction...

And a note... with K-10, you do not go Beserk until and unless you actually take any damage... so for the Troll/Ork Tanks out there, they may never even suffer the effects of the Beserk state, though I would not count on it happening ALL of the time... eventually Karma does catch up to you...

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

if they fail, they stay berserk permanently.
Does this mean the character is permanently in a state of uncontrollable violence or does this mean any conflict, even when not under the influence of the drug, may provoke another rage?

[Emy]

if they fail, they stay berserk permanently.
Does this mean the character is permanently in a state of uncontrollable violence or does this mean any conflict, even when not under the influence of the drug, may provoke another rage?

The former.