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> Infected Heights and Weights
Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 05:04 PM
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Okay, anybody who's known me for any length of time in association with Shadowrun knows that I've had a real bug up my ass about heights and weights of critters and character races since the first edition. I've been fighting with them for a long, long time, and with SR4, I actually scored a minor victory of sorts. Rob asked me for heights and weights for the player races, and while they got doctored slightly between my handing them in and their publication, I still feel they're better and more realistic in this edition than we've ever gotten before.

I also provided heights and weights to Lars for the metavariants in Runner's Companion, which survived more or less unscathed as I'd submitted them. Again for those who've known me for a long time, there's a reason I haven't been griping about the heights and weights in this edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My height and weight figures for critters didn't survive so well in the core book, though I did get a better (though not really accurate, IMO) weight for the sasquatch in there. Can't win them all.

All this being said, it should surprise no one that I originally had a height and weight chart for all the Infected critters in Running Wild. It didn't survive the word count fight, and that's probably a good thing since no one else had done one for the hundreds of other critters appearing in the book. However, I'm typically a horrendous packrat if something is even a little bit important to me, and this certainly qualifies. I've included the six sentients that the Infected stem from for reference.

CODE
Critter            Height (cm)  Weight (kg)  Height (in)  Weight (lb)
Bandersnatch       300          300          118            660
Banshee            190           72           75            158
Chupacabras        120           45           47             99
Drop Bear           75           10           29             22
Dwarf              120           54           47            119
Dzoo-noo-qua       250          393           98            865
Elf                190           80           75            176
Fomóraig           285          480          112          1,056
Ghoul (Dwarf)      120           63           47            138
Ghoul (Elf)        190           93           75            204
Ghoul (Human)      175           93           69            199
Ghoul (Ork)        190          148           75            327
Ghoul (Sasquatch)  300          348          118            766
Ghoul (Troll)      250          348           98            766
Gnawer             120           63           47            139
Goblin             120           45           47            100
Grendel            200          176           79            387
Harvester          190          106           75            232
Human              175           78           69            172
Jabberwock         300          300          118            660
Loup-garou         175          106           69            233
Mutaqua            250          441           98            970
Nosferatu          175           70           69            154
Ork                190          128           75            282
Sasquatch          300          300          118            660
Troll              250          300           98            660
Vampire            175           78           69            172
Wendigo            230          178           90            392
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Ancient History
post Apr 10 2010, 05:07 PM
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Man, those sasquatch-Infected look pretty anorexic next to those troll-Infected. Bandersnatch needs a sammich, badly.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 05:27 PM
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Sasquatch in general are anorexic, and I brought this up to Rob in the SR4 playtesting. Trolls are lighter than I'd first figured them, too. I was overruled; it happens. On the whole, I was victorious more than I was defeated, so I'll take the small victories where I find them.

For edification, here's what I'd originally presented for SR4 (limited to just humans, trolls, elves, dwarfs, orks, and sasquatches.

CODE
Critter            Height (cm)  Weight (kg)  Height (in)  Weight (lb)
Dwarf              120           54           47            119
Elf                190           80           75            176
Human              175           78           69            172
Ork                190          128           75            282
Sasquatch          280          475          110          1,045
Troll              250          335           98            737


Just for further edification, here's what the Infected in question (just the troll and sasquatch expressions, since the other four metaspecies came out as I'd presented them) look this way with these non-canon weights and heights (you'll notice that my sasquatches are shorter than the ones in SR4, in keeping with the tendency to have reduced some heights in the name of sanity).

CODE
Critter            Height (cm)  Weight (kg)  Height (in)  Weight (lb)
Bandersnatch       280          475          110          1,045
Dzoo-noo-qua       250          439           98            965
Fomóraig           285          760          112          1,672
Ghoul (Sasquatch)  280          551          110          1,212
Ghoul (Troll)      250          389           98            855
Jabberwock         280          475          110          1,045
Mutaqua            250          492           98          1,083
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Sengir
post Apr 10 2010, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 06:07 PM) *
Man, those sasquatch-Infected look pretty anorexic next to those troll-Infected. Bandersnatch needs a sammich, badly.

The Wendigo looks even worse...and some percent of the weight will still be hair. Poor things (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


PS: Are sasquatch ghouls canon or just something that got cut in development? I always thought krieger only infected metahumans.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 05:54 PM
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Sasquatch ghouls got cut a long time ago, probably in terms of post-proposal discussion and assignment. I included them for the GMs who like the idea of sasquatch ghouls, though; some GMs don't restrict Krieger like that. Definitely not canon.

Wendigos anorexic? I personally don't think so, but I'm biased. I'll go back and look over my math after lunch.
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Sengir
post Apr 10 2010, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 06:54 PM) *
Wendigos anorexic?

Compared to trolls and their infected counterparts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I personally imagine wendigos to be far more massive than the average ork, not just proportionally larger.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM
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Yeah, it's not out of the question that I forgot that wendigos do get some actual bulk from the virus, not just magical enhancement to the strength. With that in mind, I went back to my spreadsheet and added an bit on for sheer, scary bulk; that raises the wendigo to 178 kg. Better?

EDIT: Went in and changed it from 155 to 178 in the initial post. Once I thought about it, Sengir was right and they should have been more massive.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM
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Any chance we can get this in inches and pounds? I mean I'm not retarded or anything but when someone gives a height in cm I just kinda blink alot.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:25 PM) *
Any chance we can get this in inches and pounds? I mean I'm not retarded or anything but when someone gives a height in cm I just kinda blink alot.

Sure, though it'll probably be tonight before I do it. About to go on a day trip with the family.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 10 2010, 06:35 PM
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No worries. I hate looking dumb so I did it myself. lol

Is this right?

Critter_______Height (cm)__Weight (kg)_____Height (feet/inches)_____Weight in pounds
Dwarf_________120______54 ________________3ft 11in_____________119
Elf____________190______80________________6ft 3in_______________176
Human________175______78_________________5ft 9in______________171
Ork___________190______128________________6ft 3in______________282
Sasquatch______280______475_______________9ft 2in_______________1047
Troll___________250______335_______________8ft 2in_______________738


Looks a touch off.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 06:38 PM
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Look about right, though the formatting's a pain. That's why I throw CODE tags around mine; helps keep the columns lined up. Also depends on rounding; the figures I've got in my spreadsheet for this are rounded off a bit (I've got 1,045 pounds for the sasquatch, for instance). I'll transfer it all to a chart once I get back from the treasure hunt with my family.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 10 2010, 06:42 PM
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Yeah I kinda add hocked it. I'm just waking up.

Humans look a touch small. But then I'm 6'3" and 250lbs

Sasquatch are half again as tall but 5 times as heavy?

And I knew trolls were big and thick, but a touch over a third taller and more than 3 times the weight?

I'm not really arguing it. I guess i"m just saying that's a bit more than I kinda envisioned them in my head.
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Sengir
post Apr 10 2010, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM) *
With that in mind, I went back to my spreadsheet and added an bit on for sheer, scary bulk; that raises the wendigo to 178 kg. Better?

Yep, far better scaryness (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 06:55 PM
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World's tallest human on record was Robert Wadlow, who was 8'11" and weighed 490 pounds. He was a stick figure compared to a troll, and yet his weight was the canon weight for trolls, and just about 3 inches shorter, in SR3. I did a rather extensive article on this subject in The Shadowrun Supplemental #13, which you might find interesting. I did a good bit of explaining about the square-cube law and how I arrived at the weights in that article. The change of edition might change where some numbers fit in there, but the same basic logic is used to come to the numbers I've come up with.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:42 PM) *
Humans look a touch small. But then I'm 6'3" and 250lbs

I'm also 6'3" or so, but that 175 cm figure is a worldwide average. Americans can really skew the average.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 10 2010, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 01:55 PM) *
World's tallest human on record was Robert Wadlow, who was 8'11" and weighed 490 pounds. He was a stick figure compared to a troll, and yet his weight was the canon weight for trolls, and just about 3 inches shorter, in SR3. I did a rather extensive article on this subject in The Shadowrun Supplemental #13, which you might find interesting. I did a good bit of explaining about the square-cube law and how I arrived at the weights in that article. The change of edition might change where some numbers fit in there, but the same basic logic is used to come to the numbers I've come up with.



First off.. WOW... that's.... alot of math and alot of work. lol. I will say that I did think the books were a touch short and light for things. But then I am guilty of going by my own egocentric bias. People in the US ARE taller (( and often quite quite heavier)) than 'World averages'. So part of my misconception is in there.

You did alot of work for that article. A bit more math than I personally would have put into it. Must have been a pet peeve or something. Really makes you wonder about the citys in Shadowrun. Where you have to build things to hold people of 700+ pounds. I know this is taken into effect a little in the lifestyle sections and stuff, but I can say I didn't really think it out THAT far.

In our games I AM careful with my trolls. Taking their weight into account for stuff, like... crawling out on branches or fire escapes. Crossing bridges or pipes or stuff. But even with knowing they were BIG (( Being tall I can play Tall fine)) and HEAVY (( also pretty heavy for a human)) I don't think I really contemplated them as 700 to 1000lbs on average.

Being honest I probably put most of my trolls at about 450-500lbs.. in my head.

Your math and article is good though. If anything... still a bit low to me. Growing up in the southern US.. I consider the average male about 5'10 to 6' Your article has them at 5'7" so.. my math would need to scale up a few inches, but nothing terribly.

Does make you sit back and think.

I appreciate the work you put in and the DEEP thought.

Where can I find Shadowrun Supplimentals? apperently there are at least 13 of them. lol I'd love to get them and read though more stuff like this.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 10 2010, 07:35 PM
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The Shadowrun Supplemental. And yeah, the weight thing's a pet peeve. I'm not much of a gearhead, but that's one of the things I make an exception for.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 10 2010, 07:53 PM
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Thank you very much, sir.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 11 2010, 03:45 PM
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I feel like I should point out that all of these heights and weights are for baseline metaspecies that get Infected; I haven't run the numbers with the metavariants from Runner's Companion yet. That would probably be an interesting exercise....
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 11 2010, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:28 PM) *
First off.. WOW... that's.... alot of math and alot of work.

This is why God invented the spreadsheet.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM
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I've edited the initial posts with additional colums for height in inches (you can figure out how many feet that is on your own; I got tired of typing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and weight in pounds. Later today, I'll do charts for all the Infected metavariants.
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Whipstitch
post Apr 12 2010, 01:09 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 01:57 PM) *
I'm also 6'3" or so, but that 175 cm figure is a worldwide average. Americans can really skew the average.


Americans aren't actually appreciably taller than other first world nations, since height is in large part a function of nutrition. In any case, you're unusually tall. In 1980 you would be taller than 96% of American males, and height has actually gone down ever so slightly since the '50s. In reality, most US men are actually in the 5'7"-5'10" range-- once you're 5'10" you're taller than nearly 60% of all US men. People 6 foot and up skew the average upwards slightly, rendering the majority of men (Like myself; I'm just a shade under 5'9") "below average". That's in part because it's actually somewhat hard for men to get much shorter than 5'6" without nutrition and economics becoming a factor yet people who are NBA tall can scrape 7 feet.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 12 2010, 01:15 AM
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Yeah but you look at nations like India, which aren't' exactly3rd world and their average male height is like 5'5' or 5'6" or so. It's just different expressions being expressed and chosen over 100s of years.

Women like the tall men. They've done numerous studies. Women will take a tall man that makes less money over a short millionaire.
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Whipstitch
post Apr 12 2010, 01:18 AM
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Poverty is a huge factor in India. It makes their distribution all wonky. India's such a big country with such a complex history that it's a bit of a nightmare to make remotely accurate approximations about it.

Anyway, yes, height has some selection advantages, but ultimately people mate for various reasons with who is available rather than always hold out for a 6'6" Prince Charming. Ultimately, being tall enough isn't the same thing as being as tall as possible, which is why people on the end of both scales are outliers.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 12 2010, 01:30 AM
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But heights are still lower across the board. From the untouchables to the billionaires there. They're not 'all" poor.
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