Medkit ratings as skill, I'm not trying to reopen an old argument, but... Options

[Kerenshara]

I was just re-reading Unwired and came across this passage under "Sprites, New Sprite Powers", P.156:

Proficiency
Tutor sprites possess skillsofts that grant them an understanding of one or more Technical, Vehicle, or Knowledge skills, chosen upon compiling. While it can teach these skills to any person, like an instructor or interactive tutorsoft, it can also use this skill to assist a person in AR or VR as some kind of virtual assistant, with a proficiency power similar to a medkit’s autodoc program or an autosoft for humans. When the sprite guides a user through a complex task (not necessarily only the technomancer) who does not possess the skill in question, the character may perform the skill test without any modifiers, counting half the sprite’s rating (round up) as the level of the skill. Since the sprite acts as a kind of smart tutorial and teacher, assisting someone in this manner is usually more time-consuming than the normal test would be, and therefore requires an Extended or Complex Action depending on the situation (gamemaster’s call).

I underlined the passage that caught my eye, because that's not what I remember seeing in the SR4A book OR the older SR4. Now, it always irked me that a 600¥ item (Medkit, Rtg 6) could be superior to a 40,000¥ skillsoft in every way. I mean, who needs a medic? Just put a poor slob in the back of a drone taxi! This answer, while still not as restrictive as I'd like DOES begin to lean in the right direction AND give me some other ideas.

How about the Autodoc program rolls it's [Rating] and the number of hits is the effective "skill" level given? That would make a hell of a lot more sense to me, and be more like "teamwork". That, and it lets a Tutor sprite be superior to a piece of commonly available gear, which is really as it should be if you think about it.

That led me to thinking about what a "Medkit, Rtg 6" is like, relative to a "Medkit, Rtg 1". I mean, an experienced medic doesn't need the Autodoc, but still gets the "bonus" of the improved kit, right? So shouldn't there be more/more varried supplies in the higher rating kit? (read: it's bigger) If you don't know what I'm talking about, go to a first-responder catalog like www.galls.com and look under their medical kits. They have some good pictures like the old 1980's shot of military aircraft with all the ordinance laid out in front of them. The difference between a simple first-response medkit (call it Rtg 3) and a full BLS kit is pretty substandial (overnight bag versus small duffel) and a full ALS kit is pretty dramatic (full duffel with extras). Now, with super-materials, the 0₂ tank is going to shrink, obviously, but a lot of the other stuff is going to remain fairly substantial, even with future-tech replacing a lot of traditonal stuff. You're not going to find 0₂, a defibrilator, splints, braces and tracheotomy gear in a Rtg 2 or 3 kit, certainly.

What that would mean is you can't subtly bring a Medkit, Rtg 6 on a 'run. I figure you could sneak up to a Rtg 3 or maybe 4 "kit" into a backpack with other items, but beyond that, the size is going to increase rapidly.

Another aspect is that a larger kit will be better able to deal with more lesser injuries before becoming "depleted". That's a lot more bookkeeping though, and of less material interest to anybody not running a DocWagon™ campaign.

So, if you wanted to compare the RAW in SR4A to the first rule to my proposal, here's what you get:

Unskilled Character (assume Medkit, Rtg 4 for all, LOG 3):
RAW w/o Medkit:
[LOG - 1] = [3 - 1] = 2

RAW w/ Medkit:
[Medkit Rtg + LOG] = [4 + 3] = 7

Unwired:
[(Medkit Rtg ÷ 2) + LOG] = [(2) + 3] = 5 (Extended version of the test here)

Proposal:
[(Medkit Rtg Hits) + LOG] = [(1) + 3] = 4 (Extended version as above)

*Note: this might stabilize a dying character, the most you could really expect from a completely inexperienced person with the right equipment and somebody walking them through it WHILE THE PATIENT BLEEDS OUT.

Skilled (Skill 4) Character:
[First-Aid + LOGic] + [Medkit Rtg] = [4 + 3] + [4] = 11

(If you don't know how to use the supplies in the Medkit to begin with, how can those supplies really provide a bonus to your action? The Medkit's doing its best just to walk you through how to implement the items at all!)

I think the Unwired interpretation makes a real Medic highly valuable, and my proposal would make them the skilled and vital professional first-responder I think they should be (especially if they show up with that mother-huge Rtg 6 kit instead of the Rtg 4 you stuffed in your pack).

Anyhow, that's my thinking. Other people's thoughts?

(Note: I am intentionally NOT resurrecting the whole "how fast first-aid heals damage" or "why bother with hospitals or medicine skill" arguments here - I am just looking at the Autodoc feature of the stock Medkit)

[Muspellsheimr]

Or you can go with an approach that does not unnecessarily complicate issues, while allowing a medkit to provide a consistent modifier, remain useful to everyone, and not turn anyone into a top-level medic.

p.329 Medkit
Change the last sentence to:
“The medkit adds a +2 dice pool modifier to all First Aid tests, and it must be refilled regularly (usually after 5 uses).”

p.330 Biotech Table
Remove “(Rating 1-6)” from the Medkit name
Change the Medkit cost to “200¥”

[Kerenshara]

Or you can go with an approach that does not unnecessarily complicate issues, while allowing a medkit to provide a consistent modifier, remain useful to everyone, and not turn anyone into a top-level medic.

And stip the ability to "substitute" for a character's lack of First-Aid skill?

[Wandering One]

Keren,

Towards the idea of the size of the medkit, I agree with you and also GM it that way. The larger the kit, the less portable it is. I also use the rating as basically an anti-concealment for it. Toting around a Rating 5/6 medkit makes you look like you just popped out of an ambulance.

In general though I agree that a medkit shouldn't be as useful in untrained hands, but I haven't decided on a finalized house rule for it yet.

This part of it though (SR4a, pg 253):

If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests. Note that medkits and autodocs can be accessed and controlled remotely via the Matrix/wireless link.

The bolded portion makes me think it's more autonomous then just a stack of bandages, shots, and braces, but is an actual drone with software loaded. The logic test is more, in my mind, to help prioiritize the drone to making better immediate choices.

[Kerenshara]

Keren,

Towards the idea of the size of the medkit, I agree with you and also GM it that way. The larger the kit, the less portable it is. I also use the rating as basically an anti-concealment for it. Toting around a Rating 5/6 medkit makes you look like you just popped out of an ambulance.

In general though I agree that a medkit shouldn't be as useful in untrained hands, but I haven't decided on a finalized house rule for it yet.

This part of it though (SR4a, pg 253):


The bolded portion makes me think it's more autonomous then just a stack of bandages, shots, and braces, but is an actual drone with software loaded. The logic test is more, in my mind, to help prioiritize the drone to making better immediate choices.

Sure, but then the cost (again) gets to be a bit silly, don't you think? Didn't somebody at some point (Falconer, IIRC. We don't often agree outright on much, but that's not to say thier ideas aren't usually very well thought through) suggest changing the price on the things to RTG^2 x 100¥? So a Rtg 6 would be 3,600¥. Still underpriced IMHO for the level of capabilities per RAW but at least starting to get into the right range for a "drone". I always figured it was an IV of stabilization drugs or something on that one (pertaining to the rule you cite).

[pbangarth]

Why not go with the Agents/IC/Pilot cost on page 232 of SR4A: rating X 1000 nuyen up to R3, rating X 2500 nuyen up to R6? The function of a free standing medical drone would certainly fit in this category.

[Kerenshara]

Why not go with the Agents/IC/Pilot cost on page 232 of SR4A: rating X 1000 nuyen up to R3, rating X 2500 nuyen up to R6? The function of a free standing medical drone would certainly fit in this category.

*nods* That too.

Essentially, I have long thought the whole "healing" side of 4^th Ed needed a lot more thought/detail. I always thought it should be gear for mods and a 'soft for skill, add-on drone for self-contained work. But then you're getting up into ambulance-level Auto-Medics.

[Banaticus]

If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests. Note that medkits and autodocs can be accessed and controlled remotely via the Matrix/wireless link.

I don't see the problem. Sure, you could use a rating 6 medkit and be rolling 6 dice. But a maxed out character with Logic 6 and First Aid 6 could be rolling three times as many dice. It seems effective enough to actually be useful while leaving the door open for a character who's actually good at that sort of thing to be very, very effective.

[Wandering One]

Sure, but then the cost (again) gets to be a bit silly, don't you think? Didn't somebody at some point (Falconer, IIRC. We don't often agree outright on much, but that's not to say thier ideas aren't usually very well thought through) suggest changing the price on the things to RTG^2 x 100¥? So a Rtg 6 would be 3,600¥. Still underpriced IMHO for the level of capabilities per RAW but at least starting to get into the right range for a "drone". I always figured it was an IV of stabilization drugs or something on that one (pertaining to the rule you cite).

Okay, I can agree with you there on the cost levels. I was thinking more mechanics then cost. I've found that most costs aren't prohibitive period, and the first aid kit can't do long term healing, just immediate kind of work, so I wasn't building them out to medical drone costs/levels. But you're right, too, you can't toss the med bag at someone and say 'fix him'.

Need to re-think my thinking. A stabilization unit would make sense, but not the mini-droid.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Keeping in mind that healing with a medkit has a base threshold of 2 before anything actually happens and that it's not worth carrying around a medkit for stabilization purposes when stabilization patches are cheaper, lighter, and usually more effective, I would say that gimping the medkit by making it heavier, larger, more expensive, and only giving half its rating to unskilled users is a pretty damn good way of making sure that only dedicated medics are able to use it. If this is your intention, then just get rid of the substitution clause of the medkit and keep everything else the same, at least it'll still be useful to mages that way. The direct substitution of a medkit rating for skill rating in an unskilled user is there to make it so that mundanes are capable of healing damage and so that if a party's dedicated combat medic gets taken down someone else can heal him. That said, I don't think it would be a completely bad thing to make the medkit more expensive and/or larger to prevent streetsams from carrying them around for no reason. Concealability on a medkit though isn't really that big of a problem IMHO, it's not like they're illegal in any way and 'Running paranoia is usually a good enough excuse to justify having a briefcase sized medkit on you at all times. I'd say the cost modifier is probably the fairest and most effective way to make the medkit more reasonable, but you really shouldn't stack penalties onto it in the way you propose, they're not unbalancing enough to justify it.

[Muspellsheimr]

I suppose I should also have mentioned other House Rules that the medkit change is intended to be used in conjunction with.

A medkit is different from an Autodoc. A medkit requires personnel to use. An Autodoc is a drone with autosofts.
First Aid does not heal damage, instead it reduces Wound Modifiers by the character's Hits.
First Aid does not have a minimum Threshold of 2.
First Aid has other uses than Treat Injury (Stabilization, Poison, Trauma [Severe Wounds], & Resuscitation)

I do not have a compiled document yet of rules for the other uses of First Aid, so I cannot post those at the moment.

[Kerenshara]

I don't see the problem. Sure, you could use a rating 6 medkit and be rolling 6 dice. But a maxed out character with Logic 6 and First Aid 6 could be rolling three times as many dice. It seems effective enough to actually be useful while leaving the door open for a character who's actually good at that sort of thing to be very, very effective.

The problem is, as written, the extra Hit having actual skill might net you isn't worth the Karma. And unless I missed something important from On High in my hiatus, the RAW doesn't say anything about First Aid being remporary fixes. Most of us PLAY with it that way, because otherwise Medicine is useless (I'm touching on an old thread that I hoped to avoid here; I just wanted to respond generally). The idea is to have somebody with medical skill be a worthwhile person on a team, as opposed to everybody have a Medkit, Rtg 6 in their back pocket and simply shrug off medical care. The base rules expressly state they're trying to make healing between missions a lot easier and offer alternatives, but I'm more worried about healing ON the 'run. Anyhow, it's clear from your comment that in principle you're in agreement and we're just bantering about detailed mechanics (welcome to DumpShock).

Okay, I can agree with you there on the cost levels. I was thinking more mechanics then cost. I've found that most costs aren't prohibitive period, and the first aid kit can't do long term healing, just immediate kind of work, so I wasn't building them out to medical drone costs/levels. But you're right, too, you can't toss the med bag at someone and say 'fix him'.

Need to re-think my thinking. A stabilization unit would make sense, but not the mini-droid.

I've done a lot of thinking about what the 6^th World should see as "averages" over time. That's why I always play with both dice caps in place, and strongly encourage my GMs to do the same. My understanding is that both caps are standard in "sanctioned" play, as well. Instead of looking at things from a tricked-out player-character perspective, I always try to look at it from an average-statted average-or-lower EveryPerson perspective. What should we expect normally? Take driving: a simple problem on the road takes 1 Hit to avoid. An average person with no experience but a fairly maeuverable (+1 Maneuver) vehicle is going to avoid it most of the time. Handling the same vehicle offroad? Forget it. We've seen enough of that on YouTube and Failblog.org to last several lifetimes (and on the roads if we're paying attention). Now, add a single die of skill, and now you have the chance to deal with harder issues (keep up to 2 Hits). You're not really "likely" to pull it off, but you MIGHT. Now, an average statted professional (Skill 3) driver will, in a baseline (Maneuver 0) vehicle, with no other modifiers, usually avoid Threshold 2 hazards. Again, that's what we'd expect. Threshold 3 presents a challenge. A veteran driver (Skill 4) has probably developed their REAction to above-average levels (4). That's 8 dice, and now you're looking at hitting a threshold 3 66% of the time. Again, we're not too far off what we'd expect by the fluff. Now ye-ole' legendary stunt driver (Skill 7) with the reflexes of a cat (REAction 5) can average Threshold 4, and BUY the Hits needed for Threshold 3 every time. I try to apply that outlook to every skill, from medicine, to social skills, to combat, to pure book-knowledge. It's why I favor the Karmagen system: it's a lot easier to buy scads of (knowledge) skills at 2. Biology, Chemistry, Mathematics, Literature and History at 2 roughly equals a general studies bachelor's degree - the same things mean you were paying attention in highschool and graduated with a decent GPA. If your background says you went to college, I really want to see the skills to back it up on the sheet. Grew up in the NAN on a farm? Outdoors (1) and the new Animal Handling and riding skills at least at 1 are apropriate.

What gets lost amongst people focused exclusively on specialist-PC dice pool levels, is that (judging by the Karma costs), obtaining even skill 1 requires a lot of effort! In fact, if you think about it, it takes as much effort to learn the basics as to get to level 2!

Military basic training is a heck of a lot of basic proficiency rammed into a very short period of time. Etiquette, Firearms, Athletics - the whole group, electronics and computers - if it's a post-modern military, perception, Knowledges of basic maneuver, drill, tactics, TO&E, ... the list goes on.

So a high-school graduate who came from a middle-class family joining the military... see where I'm going? That's a lot of "background" skills. If you don't have them, your character's not the believable for the background. Graduate of a military college? Now you've just made it worse. Combat veteran of half-a-dozen years and a couple wars? Better have Leadership at 3+ or have a good excuse you're still just a private. A lot of these get overlooked by some folks. But if you look at it from what should be "average" for any given profession/background (and the GM does too so the badguys are similarly statted), then it's not unreasonable to have a pile of background skills at 1 or 2.

Anyhow, this turned into another of my walls-o'-text, so I'll wrap it up there. I hope maybe I at least stimulated a couple people's creativity.

[Kerenshara]

I suppose I should also have mentioned other House Rules that the medkit change works with.

First Aid does not heal damage, instead it reduces Wound Modifiers by the character's Hits.
First Aid does not have a minimum Threshold of 2.
First Aid has other uses than Treat Injury (Stabilization, Poison, Trauma [Severe Wounds], & Resuscitation)

I do not have a compiled document yet of rules for the other uses of First Aid, so I cannot post those at the moment.

OK, put together with these (which is pretty close to what we do, too) I will give it to you, generally. But the extra "layer of complexity" of the 'kit's capability is ok by me. I think I'm going to look at the "no threshold 2" thing and play with it a bit, see what falls out. Maybe I'll hack out a coherent doccument and toss it up for people to perruse like I did once-upon-a-time for mentor spirits.

[Muspellsheimr]

Take driving: a simple problem on the road takes 1 Hit to avoid. An average person with no experience but a fairly maeuverable (+1 Maneuver) vehicle is going to avoid it most of the time.

Assuming you mean a Dice Pool of 3, the character has a 70.37% chance of achieving 1 or more Hits.

Yes, this means they have a 30% chance of failure to merge on a highway.
If attempting to merge in "light traffic", Joe Average's chance with a fairly maneuverable vehicle has now dropped to 03.70%.

This is mostly a problem with the driving rules, but is good to illustrate how "most of the time" actually looks in your examples.

Now, an average statted professional (Skill 3) driver will, in a baseline (Maneuver 0) vehicle, with no other modifiers, usually avoid Threshold 2 hazards.

Dice Pool of 6 has a 64.88% chance of achieving 2 or more Hits. "Usually". Sure - I don't consider a 35% failure rate "usually". I guess that is personal opinion though.

Threshold 3 presents a challenge. A veteran driver (Skill 4) has probably developed their REAction to above-average levels (4). That's 8 dice, and now you're looking at hitting a threshold 3 66% of the time.

Dice Pool of 8 has a 53.18% chance of achieving 3 or more Hits. Not the 66% chance of success you claim.

Now ye-ole' legendary stunt driver (Skill 7) with the reflexes of a cat (REAction 5) can average Threshold 4

Lets put them in a Sports Car (+3 Handling) just for the lols. Dice Pool of 15 has a 79.08% chance of success at a Threshold 4 test. Not very impressive for a Skill of 7 character, especially considering that a Threshold 4 is "avoiding pedestrian or obstacle" on "side streets", and a Threshold 5 test is a "sudden stop" in "back alleys".

[Muspellsheimr]

OK, put together with these (which is pretty close to what we do, too) I will give it to you, generally. But the extra "layer of complexity" of the 'kit's capability is ok by me. I think I'm going to look at the "no threshold 2" thing and play with it a bit, see what falls out. Maybe I'll hack out a coherent doccument and toss it up for people to perruse like I did once-upon-a-time for mentor spirits.

I have the rules for it. They are just not yet compiled / formatted in a post-able manner.

[Kerenshara]

I have the rules for it. They are just not yet compiled / formatted in a post-able manner.

So you said. You've inspired me to actually think my own views through coherently enough and in a sufficiently structured fashion that I can put it to ... text. (I was going to say "paper" but that would be just silly.)

[KnightIII]

I have the SR4 corebook (not anniversary). Unless there is a errata or something out there, or I am badly misunderstanding the rules, it says on p242 under Using First Aid:
"The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill's rating."

The way I interpreted that is that a character can roll Logic 3 + First Aid 1 + Medkit 6 - normal run conditions 4 = 6 dice, and the maximum healable damage is 1 box for their 1 skill. The medkit doesnt overpower them so much as let them utilize the power they have. At best a character with rating 6 First Aid Skill could heal 6 boxes. That fits my view of reality in that its First Aid, not Advanced Emergency Care.

What about hooking up and leaving em? In that case the Kit rolls its own dice and nothing more. Sure it MIGHT get more hits and heal more than you could have with your 1 skill, but that makes sense too as it does not have your poorly trained butt in the way. ANd it will seldom roll 6 dice. When was the last time you needed a medkit in a perfectly sterile enviroment? The kit suffers condition modifiers too.

Just how I understand it and run it in my games. The kit will let you finish the run, or at least drag your butt out of the fire. But magical or natural healing care is usually needed if you got messed up.

[Kerenshara]

Ah, but you're exactly right! But if the Medkit can REPLACE the character's skill of 1 with the RTG 6... you lose a single die but your possible wounds goes WAY up. That's part of why I'm so hung up on the "skill" of the device and how it interacts.

[KnightIII]

Thats where condition modifiers come in.
Average (indoors) -1 5 dice for a medkit 6
Poor (street) -2 4 dice
Bad (combat) -3 3 dice

Also include:
Awakened -2
Implants -1 per 2 essence lost

You might want your skill up once those modifiers start coming into play. Sure, a Skill 1 user might be better off letting the machine do the work. But thats the whole point of the medkit. To get your battered runner mobile again. Even a Logic 6 mage with a rating 6 kit is looking at 12 dice max. To patch up a street samurai after a nasty fight you probably have at lease -3 (2 from essence, 1 from hopefully being indoors). So 9 dice. On average thats 3 hits. One over threshold. 1 damage healed. Hardly over powered.

[Heath Robinson]

Ah, but you're exactly right! But if the Medkit can REPLACE the character's skill of 1 with the RTG 6.

Nope.

If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill.

The medkit’s rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill.

If you do not have the Skill, you can use the rating of your medkit for your skill. If you have Skill, even at rating 1, you cannot.






EDIT:
However, Augmentation may (or may not, depending on your GM) supersede the rule in the BBB.

The maximum number of boxes that First Aid can heal is the Rating of the medical equipment or the First Aid skill of the character, whichever is higher.

[Banaticus]

The problem is, as written, the extra Hit having actual skill might net you isn't worth the Karma.

A rating 6 medkit will likely give two hits, which is great, but hardly something to write home about. A great medic triples the effect of a rating 6 medkit. A hacker/technomancer probably already has Logic maxed out, so all they have to do is buy one good skillsoft or buy up one skill and suddenly they're awesome medics (and this might give them something else to do in a mission as well).

I don't see the problem. A medkit is useful enough to make a difference that people with no medical knowledge will actually get some benefit from it. A character who can actually do First Aid just makes it even better.

[Kerenshara]

Hardly over powered.

It's not really about "power" - it's about consistency and "rightness". In other words: it's subjective. I have no objections to a highly trained medic healing people; I object to a moron with a medkit healing somebody that should take a full trauma ward to save. It re-emphasizes how "special" healing magic can be, and makes the painful sacrifice of the casting mage (VERY high Drain with big wounds) more significant.

I'm also of the school that says "Drain hurts! People don't usually do stuff to themselves that hurts if they can help it."

Do I overcast? Depends. Do I have enough dice in Drain Resistance to buy the thing down to 0? Then yes. If not, probably not, unless it's really cinematically important or life/team-saving.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

All right, so I can understand most of those modifiers (although it seems like you should really get a +1 for being in a sterile facility rather than a -1 for being indoors) but what's up with the penalty for treating mages/adepts/technomancers? What, they have a Magic attribute and suddenly their physiology is different?

[Kerenshara]

All right, so I can understand most of those modifiers (although it seems like you should really get a +1 for being in a sterile facility rather than a -1 for being indoors) but what's up with the penalty for treating mages/adepts/technomancers? What, they have a Magic attribute and suddenly their physiology is different?

Mostly? (I believe) It's a holdover from the days when if you used First Aid on a Mage without regard for their Awakened status, you could damage their MAGic rating permanently. Re: the ESSense modifier has to do with the fact that the body's inante integrity has been damaged, which generally affected healing across the board.

[Banaticus]

Shouldn't that be something that comes from the damage itself? I don't think First Aid should have a chance of lowing essence if you look at it that way, but damage should.