Off topic: Shadowrun with out Essence/ magic., Don't really know where to put this, feel free to move Options

[Kronk2]

SOoo I am looking to run a SR game set about 2275. By this time I expect most all implants can be produced in a probiotic manner, making them host/user friendly. There are a few invasive on which I completely reduce the danger/invasiveness of the implant. Most Notably: Move by wire, high grade dermal plating, (besides the look is part of why you do it). Just kind getting a feeling of what the community thinks about ditching magic and essence over all. I plan on making most implants nano installed or bioware. I still plan on having a very few technomancers. So should I worry about essence for them?

[FooFighter]

I think ditching essence would be a rather bad idea (I can't comment on magic, as I haven't really got a lot of experience with magic in SR). Especially implants such as the Move-by-Wire system you've cited would get truly "uber" if you'd remove it's drawbacks, and with money being the only limiting resource, characters could easily become a force unstoppable by anything short of a similarly overpowered character or a tactical nuclear warhead.

I think it would be a better idea to just reduce implant's essence costs (or raise your group's characters's maximum essence tolerance); if your players will still want to go above the limit, maybe you can work something out like their characters becoming cyber-zombies (maybe with slightly less dramatic effects).

Then again, it's your group, of course, and if everyone of you enjoys playing (against) Terminators, by all means, do it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Tanegar]

IMO, Shadowrun without magic isn't really Shadowrun. You may want to consider another game; Eclipse Phase springs to mind.

[Kronk2]

IMO, Shadowrun without magic isn't really Shadowrun. You may want to consider another game; Eclipse Phase springs to mind.

Thought about that, and have the pdf. but I don;t get it enough to make it "go"

[Kronk2]

I think ditching essence would be a rather bad idea (I can't comment on magic, as I haven't really got a lot of experience with magic in SR). Especially implants such as the Move-by-Wire system you've cited would get truly "uber" if you'd remove it's drawbacks, and with money being the only limiting resource, characters could easily become a force unstoppable by anything short of a similarly overpowered character or a tactical nuclear warhead.

I think it would be a better idea to just reduce implant's essence costs (or raise your group's characters's maximum essence tolerance); if your players will still want to go above the limit, maybe you can work something out like their characters becoming cyber-zombies (maybe with slightly less dramatic effects).

Then again, it's your group, of course, and if everyone of you enjoys playing (against) Terminators, by all means, do it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

My intent is to streamline the things that do cost essence. and I agree with your logic there. I am going to be HARD enforcing availability. Where they are going new gear is going to be hard to come by.

[Banaticus]

In such a world, some "basic" things would be different. Just like most "norms" have cybereyes (why get contacts/glasses to fix your poor vision when a few nuyen buys "unbreakable glasses" that don't give the stigma of wearing glasses, that let you spot test answers from 100 feet away and whatever other mods you can get put in there), most "norms" would have other things as well. The ability to think and move x3 faster? Wired reflexes would basically be required to get a good job in a company. Why hire 3 normal secretaries when you can hire a wired reflex 3 secretary that does the same work for 1/3 the pay? Why hire 3 normal mages for the secret job when you can hire one wired reflex 3 mage and get the job done in the same time but only have one person that needs to be removed afterward?

Like all modern technology, the ability to do things faster doesn't mean that the world moves to 10 hour work-weeks and spends the rest of the time vacationing, no, the ability to do things faster means the world moves to everybody having to do things that fast just to stay competitive.

All wage slaves by this point would likely have wired reflexes 3 -- it would be de jour, the price of entering the game. Of course, in a such a day of mass marketing, such gear should cost a lot less as well.

This would have a few changes. Nobody would have extra initiative passes during a combat turn. What's the point of dividing a turn up into 3 phases when everyone has three phases? Only one initiative pass per turn and if someone is that rare uncybered barbarian from the swamps that probably doesn't even know how to dress and feed himself, then he only gets to act every three combat turns.

[D2F]

IMO, Shadowrun without magic isn't really Shadowrun. You may want to consider another game; Eclipse Phase springs to mind.

Or Cyberpunk 2020.

[Tanegar]

Is the tech level in CP2020 high enough to mesh with the given date of 2275?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

IMO, Shadowrun without magic isn't really Shadowrun. You may want to consider another game; Eclipse Phase springs to mind.

Shadowrun without Magic becomes a fairly good representation of Cyberpunk... and though there are a few Cyberpunk Genre games out there, Shadowrun is one of the best (If you remove the Magic)... Though I do like Cyberpunk 2020 as well...

I would keep the Essence rating as well, and make the various Grades more available than they already are, and make the 'ware cheaper at the base cost... with Delta Everything and all of the Bells and whistles, you can have almost 30 points of (effective essence) 'ware installed into the body... that is pretty brutal indeed...

Keep the Faith

[kjones]

IMO, Shadowrun without magic isn't really Shadowrun. You may want to consider another game; Eclipse Phase springs to mind.

So don't call it "Shadowrun" - call it "Generic cyberpunk game with mechanics that do a good job of representing a generic cyberpunk world", which is pretty much the case. CP 2020 is a cool game, but it is very clunky. SR without magic is solid cyberpunk - you're losing a lot of the setting, but if you're ok with that, then that's that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So don't call it "Shadowrun" - call it "Generic cyberpunk game with mechanics that do a good job of representing a generic cyberpunk world", which is pretty much the case. CP 2020 is a cool game, but it is very clunky. SR without magic is solid cyberpunk - you're losing a lot of the setting, but if you're ok with that, then that's that.

Setting can always be re-written, which it would have to be anyways for a game set in 2275...

It is a cool idea... and I have thought about doing the same thing for a while now... maybe one of these days I will get off my butt and actaully do something about it...

Keep the Faith

[Kronk2]

Setting can always be re-written, which it would have to be anyways for a game set in 2275...

Basically what I am looking at is Shadowrun meets Star Wars minus the Jedi mostly. Although, later on I want to introduce gravity wielding technomancers.
I am doing a way with magic in favor ultra tech. Technomancers can do all the normal matrix stuff and can lean (after submersion) to control one physical force. (electricity, magnetism, gravity, that kind of thing) (for those of you who know it, think Sohon from John Ringo's "Legacy of the aldenta")

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Basically what I am looking at is Shadowrun meets Star Wars minus the Jedi mostly. Although, later on I want to introduce gravity wielding technomancers.
I am doing a way with magic in favor ultra tech. Technomancers can do all the normal matrix stuff and can lean (after submersion) to control one physical force. (electricity, magnetism, gravity, that kind of thing) (for those of you who know it, think Sohon from John Ringo's "Legacy of the aldenta")

Sounds a bit like Equinox

[Kronk2]

Also, have considered above input, and present the following: What about not charging essence for non combat ware? I plan on basic strength enhancements being accomplished by formfitting exo-suits. I want companion agents to be about as common as comlinks or ipods. People who actually get jacks would be rare, because there is little need for a consumer to get them. Electrodes get you netbound fairly easily and are cheap to the point of being disposable. head memory is not necessarily important because, the Agent files everything on a rented private server.

The sense mods have been getting progressively less expensive with every update so I have no problems with just doing away with essence cost of the more normal ones (lowlight, flare comp, image link, thermo, high/ low freq hearing, that kind of thing) more exotic changes will still require some cost. (optical telescopic, extreme ultra low freq hearing, UV perception, and sonigraphy)
A basic Adernal pump I don;t think would cost much essence wise, but would not be inexpensive. Again, most of the bioware, no essence cost, but freaking expensive. it would include genome alteration so that your body would accept the implants as normal and work with them, and not require immuno-suppressants.

[Kronk2]

Sounds a bit like Equinox

What is Equinox?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Equinox

I've never played it, but it seems like shadowrun in space basically, which seems to be something your going for.

[Kronk2]

do you all have any ideas on making combat flow faster?

[Udoshi]

SOoo I am looking to run a SR game set about 2275. By this time I expect most all implants can be produced in a probiotic manner, making them host/user friendly. There are a few invasive on which I completely reduce the danger/invasiveness of the implant. Most Notably: Move by wire, high grade dermal plating, (besides the look is part of why you do it). Just kind getting a feeling of what the community thinks about ditching magic and essence over all. I plan on making most implants nano installed or bioware. I still plan on having a very few technomancers. So should I worry about essence for them?

You know, i had a similiar thought the other day, for changing up shadowrun's rules to get a slightly different system. It occured when I was looking through adept powers, and thinking 'You know, a lot of these powers, like iron gut really aren't really that magical at all'. And most of them replicate abilities from 'ware anyway.

Here's what you ought to do. You make all the main characters Adepts. For free. And you tell them that its not magic, but just extra training that gives them an advantage or a cool ability. For example, the crazy martial artist dude might have power over life and death with his (killing)hands and acupuncture skills(pain relief), the geek may have Multitasking to listen to music all the time without the distraction penalty, and analytics to deal with thinking problems. The guy that people just listen to, whether its a face, a natural leader or even a charismatic corporate head would choose powers like Commanding Voice and Enthralling performance. Just, say, tie the adept powers to Edge instead of Magic, and you're golden. Perhaps PP=half edge, round up, if you're concerned about Balance - but its more balanced than just doing away with Essence completely.

I would keep your essence, but be stricter about the various rules for lowering it - addiction, some optional rules about grevious injuries in augmentation/street magic, essence drain - more or less, abusing your body messes with your holistic well-being. And by 2275, i'd imagine there's a lot more ways to mess with yourself in terms of drugs, pollution, and direct-to-brain intertainment. Augmentation also has ways to raise your essence, and i'd imagine its gotten easier in 200 years. I'd keep Essence around - but also treat it as a seperate condition track. For every 2-3 points lost, they get a -1 wound penalty or so to everything
until they stop killing themselves by inches.

.... so, yeah, its basically Shadowrun: Super hero version. But you've also given your players a way to expand upon their abilities in a cool and unique way.

[Grexul]

I think if you are really setting the game in 2275 then consider what the advances in genetics will have done to improve the basic metahuman. Many of the things improved by Augmentation may already be genetically commonplace by that time.

Grexul

[Ol' Scratch]

If you just want to get rid of magic for some reason, all you have to do is get rid of magic. Essence is a stat that revolves around balancing implants in addition to trying to keep magic balanced with non-magicians. There's no reason at all to get rid of it.

If you simply ignore the magic system and every thing that relates to it, the game functions just as well as it does with it.

[kjones]

In such a world, some "basic" things would be different. Just like most "norms" have cybereyes (why get contacts/glasses to fix your poor vision when a few nuyen buys "unbreakable glasses" that don't give the stigma of wearing glasses, that let you spot test answers from 100 feet away and whatever other mods you can get put in there), most "norms" would have other things as well. The ability to think and move x3 faster? Wired reflexes would basically be required to get a good job in a company. Why hire 3 normal secretaries when you can hire a wired reflex 3 secretary that does the same work for 1/3 the pay? Why hire 3 normal mages for the secret job when you can hire one wired reflex 3 mage and get the job done in the same time but only have one person that needs to be removed afterward?

Like all modern technology, the ability to do things faster doesn't mean that the world moves to 10 hour work-weeks and spends the rest of the time vacationing, no, the ability to do things faster means the world moves to everybody having to do things that fast just to stay competitive.

All wage slaves by this point would likely have wired reflexes 3 -- it would be de jour, the price of entering the game. Of course, in a such a day of mass marketing, such gear should cost a lot less as well.

This would have a few changes. Nobody would have extra initiative passes during a combat turn. What's the point of dividing a turn up into 3 phases when everyone has three phases? Only one initiative pass per turn and if someone is that rare uncybered barbarian from the swamps that probably doesn't even know how to dress and feed himself, then he only gets to act every three combat turns.

I was thinking about this, and realized something kind of strange. If you are performing an extended test with an interval of a Complex Action, then additional IPs will help you. But if the interval is 1 turn, or 1 minute, or anything else, extra IPs won't make a difference.

Is this correct? Am I missing something? Or is this just an oddity of the rules?

[nezumi]

SOoo I am looking to run a SR game set about 2275. By this time I expect most all implants can be produced in a probiotic manner, making them host/user friendly.

Essence does not represent solely the introduction of new material to your body, but how that new material alters your perception of the world in making you less human. As long as move by wire makes you operate in a distinctly non-human manner, there will be an essence cost.

Arguably, you could say the 'essence loss' problem has been understood and translated into something different. As Kage has always put it, low essence represents the body becoming more pure. What happens when a human is no longer a human? Some sort of mechanic could reasonably represent this, but I'm not quite sure what.

However, from a mechanics standpoint, it seems reasonable. Each character increases his attributes and skills using karma, and increases hisother physical abilities using cash. You're going to have some super men, and get ready for a mechanics mush (because you have so many people with special abilities and modifiers), but from a balance perspective, it doesn't really bother me. The biggest balance question will be you'll have the same problem D&D has - new, low-level characters can't keep up with experienced, high-level ones.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

However, from a mechanics standpoint, it seems reasonable. Each character increases his attributes and skills using karma, and increases hisother physical abilities using cash. You're going to have some super men, and get ready for a mechanics mush (because you have so many people with special abilities and modifiers), but from a balance perspective, it doesn't really bother me. The biggest balance question will be you'll have the same problem D&D has - new, low-level characters can't keep up with experienced, high-level ones.

You have this issue already, though, in Shadowrun... and really, in every game out there...

Experienced characters tend to outshine new ones... that is part of being experienced vs. being New...

Keep the Faith

[HentaiZonga]

If you ditch Magic, just rename Essence to "Integrity" and call it good. Handwave it as the maximum amount of Central Nervous System integration and modification that can be done before the person's neural network loses cohesion.

[Kronk2]

I like the idea of essence as a track of your nature. instead of essence you could call it humanity. Because in many ways, you will be giving yourself over to the world of the created.
{edit- P.S.}

but that really wouldn;t work, because all living things possess an essence score, and I am going to give some animals companion AI also. (Every ship has an mascot that contains certain parts of the ships programming, and must be on board to enter ftl travel.)