Fun Rules Mistakes Options

[Eratosthenes]

What if you take time to patch your own software to keep it SOTA? Then it won't degrade. The question then becomes, how much time does it take to code and apply a patch?

Extended test, Rating/1 week to patch a program, IIRC. Same as for patching cracked software.

So every month, you'd have to spend at least 1 week (or 3-4 days if you rush it) to patch one piece of software you'd written.

[Yerameyahu]

And don't forget that you'd have several programs to keep up to date. There goes your free nights. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.

I *knew* no degradation made no sense. Thanks, Dr. F.

[Dixie Flatline]

It's contradictory enough that I can see the intent being either interpretation. Given the balance problems that arise when players can write R12 hacking programs (worst of all being Stealth), your interpretation is better for the health of a campaign.

It's contradictory enough that once one of my players reads up on it, I *will* be having this rules argument.

For the record, in the other thread a few weeks back on this, I argued essentially what was laid out above, which is that the program will still degrade, just not from built in obsolescence.

Even if a Dev comes in and says that we're wrong, that custom written software never degrades, they can jump off a pier. It needs to degrade.

[Ol' Scratch]

The simple fact is that the errata is talking solely about degradation due to sabotaged programming by the megacorportions. Even using basic logic and common sense, all programs -- even ones you code yourself -- should still degrade due to the constant SOTA wars. The rules, even post errata, still confirm that self-coded programs degrade that way. For some strange reason, the errata just reinforces the idea that this rule (like all of the optional ones relating to SOTA style effects throughout the history of the game) is dependent upon the GM's discretion. Why they foolishly bring it up at random is anyone's guess.

Call it contradictory if you like, but it's clear in intent and the previous paragraph makes it ironclad.

The problem is that the game doesn't take the tenacity of pirates and hackers seriously. They'd set up their own sites and recode software so that they could post the corporate updates and give free access to those updates to everyone who cared to get it. If they're handing out Nuke and Blackout programs, why would they just stop there? Whatever argument you give for that applies equally to the core program itself, so it's totally moot.

[kjones]

That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.

Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel like 'purely game balance' is a pretty important factor.

[Bira]

That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.

I was always a little bothered by Unwired's software rules. I realize they're for game balance, but there's something wonky about rules that add big incentives for your big bad criminal hacker to buy original software and pay for the updates like a good little citizen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

They kinda painted themselves into a corner by treating software like it was any other piece of physical equipment and making it integral to hacking. I feel that a set of rules that abstracted the software away would have been better. "Hey, you're a big bad hacker. Your OS and all your programs are either open source or expertly cracked warez, and they're the best you could fit into your hardware. So the rules only care about how fast your hardware is, and how good you are at using those programs!"


Also, to keep on topic, I remember a GM who confused wards with physical barriers, and thus completely hosed his group on that second Denver Missions adventure where they go up against a rival shadowrunner team that has a rather weak shaman. "All magicians can put up barriers, so the shaman has littered the entire place with them!"

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, but that would make for a nice, smooth, easy-to-use Matrix system. If it's not grossly overcomplicated and ridiculously confusing, it can't be Shadowrun's Matrix system. Been that way since day one, and I think the developer's heads would explode if they even considered moving away from that, dang blast it! <curmudgeony jig as he shakes his fist in the air>

[Voronesh]

Yeah its only Shadowrun if magic is as easy as pointing a gun and pulling the trigger.

And the Matrix hacker goes into a world where everything can happen, and both sides (Gm and Player) funble their way along the world.

[Wandering One]

Speaking of Rule Mistakes, not exactly a rule but I misheard one of my players using control voice (IE: Sound like someone else). I swore he said "Commanding" Voice. Now, up a stairway attempting to lure some gangers out of position to where he wanted to go, he yells 'FUCK!' at the top of his lungs.

Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.

[Draco18s]

And don't forget that you'd have several programs to keep up to date. There goes your free nights. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.

Free nights? Talk about your whole life. You can't do runs or do shopping (for the Serious Stuff) when you're patching.

Basically, by RAW (before the "self-made programs never degrade" thing) you could only have 4 self-coded up-to-date programs, ever. And god help you if you try and actually code a new program. Even if it takes a mere 4 weeks, that's 4 weeks you didn't spend patching another piece of software.

At least its better than it used to be. IIRC, SR3's programming build/repair table had hacking programs at 3 month intervals or something absurd like that (system/response was 6 months!)

[nemafow]

Speaking of Rule Mistakes, not exactly a rule but I misheard one of my players using control voice (IE: Sound like someone else). I swore he said "Commanding" Voice. Now, up a stairway attempting to lure some gangers out of position to where he wanted to go, he yells 'FUCK!' at the top of his lungs.

Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[TomDowd]

I've been playing SR4 for a couple of months, and I only just now learned that you can't target physical targets with M spells from the astral. All this time, my group's mage has been running around Stunbolting unsuspecting people while astrally projected.

Don't feel so bad... I made that exact same mistake in one of the novels. Oy.

TD

[kjones]

Don't feel so bad... I made that exact same mistake in one of the novels. Oy.

TD

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Which one, if you don't mind my asking?

[Samoth]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Which one, if you don't mind my asking?

I think he's referring to Burning Bright, when Kyle is on his astral trip.

[LurkerOutThere]

That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.

Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.

Honestly i've always hand waved it to the way that legally the corporations can send hit men or military aircraft after software pirates, openly in most cases.

[Bira]

That's kinda going in the wrong direction, IMHO, but it's your game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Draco18s]

Honestly i've always hand waved it to the way that legally the corporations can send hit men or military aircraft after software pirates, openly in most cases.

Or how you can buy a copy of BlackHammer, but if you use it on someone, there's a record of the use that the authorities can use to contact the devleoper and get your identity.

"Ah, yes, we have a use of BlackHammer--an illegal-to-own software--developed by your corporation, registered by the key 23892-91824-7999-10942. Can you give us his address?"
"Certainly Investigator." *hands info*
"Thank you kindly."

(Think about that for a minute)

[Yerameyahu]

Well, a gun is legal to own, but using it one someone can be very illegal. And then the Investigator looks up the gun's registration…

[LurkerOutThere]

"Ah, yes, we have a use of BlackHammer--an illegal-to-own software--developed by your corporation, registered by the key 23892-91824-7999-10942. Can you give us his address?"
"Certainly Investigator."

...........
"Hello?"
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."


That's at least how I figured it goes.

[Draco18s]

"Hello?"
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."


That's at least how I figured it goes.

What I meant was, people like to go on and on about how purchased software (as opposed to pirated/self coded) leaves fingerprints that are traceable back to your SIN because it was legally purchased.

But who in their right minds would think that the developing corp would actually give out that information?

However, if they did, you have to question why the authorities don't crack down on the producers of the software in the first place (hence my usage of Black Hammer: its illegal to own, Renraku could get fined into bankruptcy if anyone knew that it was in use, however, those corps that do use it use it to protect things that are so highly secret it's a crime to get near enough to know that black IC is involved....assuming you survive the cybercombat).

[Dumori]

The thing is black hammer is illegal for most people to own just like assault rifles and such. Also corp make there own laws so defenidn there node in there land there are free to use what ever.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I see your point. Well, 'illegal' assault rifles are just as legal to manufacture, so I think my point stands.

As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.

[Draco18s]

I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit softwareused naughtily.

My point is, "legitimately illegal software" makes no sense. Black IC is not legal for anyone to own or manufacture.

[Drats]

Ah, I see your point. Well, 'illegal' assault rifles are just as legal to manufacture, so I think my point stands.

As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.

And that's not to mention the fact that the corps have a vested interest in at least appearing to be be responsible about spreading around their more dangerous programs. Extraterritoriality provides for manufacturing and selling whatever they please within the bounds of their own territorial authority, but laws be damned: if public opinion is that your corporation is readily putting weapons in the hands of maniacal script kiddies and helping them get away with frying John Q. Wageslave's brain, well, that's probably going to hurt your bottom line.