Matrix stats and when used, Who's computer actually controls the results? Options

[Wandering One]

Okay, now, I know this is going to sound odd but it's the twists and turns that are confusing me, mostly because I'm used to SR2 decking and they've significantly altered the system.

Firewall, System, Response, and Signal. Firewall and Signal are simple enough. It's system and response that's throwing me for a loop, but due to specifics.

You run active programs on your icon, and then invade a node. Now, at first glance, I assume your System is controlling the rating of software that you can run, and the response is handling max # of programs. This seemed simple enough.

Then, later, I get confused in some example and fluff text, where it seems to indicate that the response of the node that the character is currently inhabiting is going to limit the # of programs of both the hacker and the spider he's working against. Also, in the case of IC, if it comes from a different node, is it pushing the response limit of the node itself?

If the node shoots itself in the foot, response wise, doesn't that also affect any hackers trying to get in as well? Also, with say, response 5, am I correct in this: # of programs/result: 4/0, 5/-1, 9/-1, 10/-2?

For system, since in theory you're running your icon on these foreign machines even though you logged in local, is it the foreign system that limits your program rating, or your local?

I'm quite sure I've simply twisted myself up in some details, but if someone could help me untangle this it'd be great.

[Banaticus]

I think this is how it works: Whatever you use to access the Matrix has to be able to handle all the stuff you're pouring through it, so your commlink has to be able to handle it. The node that you're doing stuff in also has to be able to handle the stuff that's coming in. Otherwise, that node crashes, which might be a good way to defend against IC -- start up extra programs, rush the response down to 0, which in turns drops the system down to 0 and suddenly you're out of the IC because the node just crashed.

At least, I think it works that way.

[forgarn]

When you enter the matrix you are using your hardware to load everything. When you enter a node you are now using the node's hardware to run things along side everyone else in the node.

[Wandering One]

When you enter the matrix you are using your hardware to load everything. When you enter a node you are now using the node's hardware to run things along side everyone else in the node.

This doesn't seem right to me, otherwise why have response affect initiative at all then? Everyone's at the same level since you can only fight in the same node.

[Summerstorm]

Yeah, that whole thing doesn't feel right. IF it were like this (Node of action counts, not your origin), then why would anyone allow for high rating programs to be run? And how wouldn't they notice the higher load when a fully loaded hacker logs on?

No, i think all that counts should be your origin node/comlink. A Connection (Subscription) no matter to what allows you a fully simsense feedback. Up and down with full speed. What you do with it, what you "feed back" through it can be anything. The processing, the bottleneck is on your hardware/software.

For example if you log into a drone to rig it, it's response should be of no consequence anymore. It doesn't "think" it just gives you raw data and you react. YOUR comlink should limit you. That is one of the reasons people do rig something: With one good Nexus/Comlink you can save money. You don't have to outfit all the drones with a rating 6 response+3 rating of response enhancer.

Many people will tell you otherwise... and maybe they are right by RAW. But i like to go the logical way. Limiting people for logging onto something is a weird thing to do and negates expensive equipment.

[DireRadiant]

Hacker A Node A
Hacker B Node B
Node C

Hacker A and B fight in Node C, Use Node C attributes. Classic situation of each Hacker using their commlink to connect to another system and duking it out there.

Hacker A and B fight in Node A. Use Node A attributes. Hacker B is attacking Hacker A in Hacker A commlink.

For Node B, see previous.

There's some more interesting convoluted variations. Consider that in "Hacker A and B fight in Node C," that Hacker A is still present in Node A and a different Hacker C could attack them there while at the same time Hacker A is operating a Persona in Node C

Even though you are operating your persona in a different node, you are also present in your "home" node. Also think about that each persona you see in a node, there is a "home" node on the other end of that persona.

[Eratosthenes]

I always envisioned it more that you can run the program on your commlink, or you can assign the program to the node you're in (if you're logged in). If you run it on the node, use the node's stats. If you run it on your comm, use your comm's stats.

I believe I remember reading about agents, like this: you can run the agent on your comm, and it goes out and does stuff as long as you keep your commlink on. If you cut it lose, it "lives" on whatever node you loaded it to, and is limited by said node.

And in much of the "fluff", it seems to be this way. E.g., Slamm-O and Netcat vs. the campus rigger. Slamm-O uses Nuke on the rigger, and shuts down the rigger's system/response, not the response of the node they were both in.

Besides, if it depended on the node you were in, your commlink wouldn't really matter for much. I think the node is impacted by the number of subscribers, though. You couldn've have 20 hackers all try to logon to that rating 3 node without a major performance hit. Think of MMORPG's: if your PC can't handle the client, you get lag/chug. But if the server get's too many people, everyone gets lag.

[kjones]

If you're running all your programs on the node to which you are connected, then Nuke would be suicide - you'd be hurting your own response too.

[Wandering One]

If you're running all your programs on the node to which you are connected, then Nuke would be suicide - you'd be hurting your own response too.

I thought about that, but why not just limit program ratings to the system of the node you login via (coffeeshop or comm, your choice, and pre-optimization). I'm... missing something in this. I think I'm going to have to sit down with 4a and walk through it inch by inch on paper (probably here) and have someone point out the specific points where I've misinterpreted rules.

[SpellBinder]

Your stats are limited only by your node. Your commlink is a node. Your persona runs from your commlink only, unless you are able to get at least a security account on a [hopefully] better nexus to upload your persona and programs (not really feasible in the middle of a cyberfight).

Sitting between Hacker A & Hacker B in a cyberfight can be anywhere from zero (only if within mutual Signal range) to an infinite number of nodes. All these other nodes do is pass information along, whether it's a love letter e-mail or the corrupting code of an Attack program. That coffee shop nexus that passes info along can have a System & Response of 2, but that does not matter in passing the data of a rating 5 Attack to its target node; the coffee shop doesn't run the Attack at all, only the node that sent it does.

Now if your persona was counted as running on every nexus in your data trail (lets face it, you're not always gonna be in mutual Signal reach to what you're hacking), Attack and Nuke would be horrendously devastating attacks as hackers in the equivalent of a school yard fight could potentially crash and/or freeze dozens, maybe hundreds of nexus nodes at once. Not to mention that this could also limit your Matrix stats to the worst of any of the nodes or nexi in the data trail (your cutting edge commlink with all 6's for stats and software is now nerfed to 2's because of that coffee shop, with all additional subsequent consequences).

[Wandering One]

Agreed on the datatrail, Spellbinder, but the discussion is are you running the software from your node, or from where your icon is on the foreign computer, loaded into their system... otherwise lag could mess with IP's and the like... and the rules that surround program limitations for # of running, etc.

[Ryu]

You use your own hardware for running your own software. Using one of your programs on a different node requires a subscription to that node. Running said program on that node is not required. See Unwired pg. 55 on Subscriptions.

On a cursory search I did not find examples that use target node stats for tests made by the hacker. You might be confused by examples for agents/IC.

[SpellBinder]

Ryu has it right. Guess I put a little too much info into my previous post.

[Banaticus]

What's a nexus, how much does it cost, where's it found in the books?

[SpellBinder]

Unwired, pages 50 and 198 to get you started.

[Heath Robinson]

What's a nexus, how much does it cost, where's it found in the books?

Big serverish kind of thing.
Depends on its stats.
Unwired, Gear section.

[Drats]

Nexi are also listed in SR4A, but they don't go into too much detail aside from "They're not limited to normal subscription limit rules," IIRC.

On topic, though, I've always used this easy method to clear up confusion when it comes to System resources: wherever I see the words "running on," mentally replace them with "running from." Any programs you're using are typically run from your link, and use your resources. Any programs an enemy Hacker is running are typically run from their commlink.

Any confusion probably arises from the fact that any other node in the Matrix can also run its own programs, and that anyone with the proper privileges on that node (either because they're a legitimate user or because they've hacked Admin or Security access to the node) can run them, unload them, or whatever they please. THOSE programs count as being run from the node on which they're loaded, and use its resources. For instance, if you don't have a Trace program on your 'link, but you've hacked Administrative access to a node that does, you can use that node's Trace to track another user on the node, and doing so takes up a slot on that node's processor limit, not yours. (With administrative access, you generally have full control over its programs, and could load and use other programs there without them taking up your processor limit, but they'd be subject to the Matrix Attributes of that node, not yours. Note that since they're running from a node aside from the one where your Persona originates, they're not "portable" with you throughout the 'Trix, and must be used on the node that they're running from.)

... I hope that cleared things up more than it muddied them up. The general consensus among my players is that I've got a pretty elegant understanding of Matrix concepts but that I usually end up shoving my head halfway up my hoop when I try to explain them in words.

[Heath Robinson]

I'm beginning to think that the best way to make the SR4 matrix readable is to start talking MMORPG with the player. You don't have a "Process Limit" you've got "Inventory Slots". You run around in a simulated world (already). Mythology, fantasy, and history seem to be major styles for sculpting as well. You have "keys" for getting into "locked" dungeons, but you can also "pick" them. Only the more arcane aspects of the Matrix then need explaining in a technical manner, and you may never actually touch those bits in any given game.

[Banaticus]

I thought it was both. If your connection to the Matrix can't handle what you're doing, then you don't have a connection to the Matrix. Likewise, if a node can't handle what's going on in it, then that node shuts down.

[nemafow]

The Matrix is a mystical world...

[SpellBinder]

Now if that were true, Banaticus, then one could never be a 'street side cafe' kind of hacker; sipping that morning soykaf while you're weaseling your way through the firewall of a Johnson's commlink. Most coffee shop nodes can't handle the software most Shadowrunner hackers use.

And I shudder to think what would happen to that local Starbucks if a technomancer opted to get serious on someone's commlink.

[Emy]

The rules for magic are straightforward and logical. The rules for hacking are weird and whimsical.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[Udoshi]

When you enter the matrix you are using your hardware to load everything. When you enter a node you are now using the node's hardware to run things along side everyone else in the node.

This is how Agents work, and what the Payload is for.

Its important to keep in mind that there is a distinction between -connecting- to a node (via a subscription) and being physically(using its hardware) on the node itself.

A regular user runs their own software on their own hardware, and uses it when doing stuff on the matrix. An agent may do the same thing(I believe) - but may *also* transfer itself from node to node to get stuff done.

[Error]

The rules for magic are straightforward and logical. The rules for hacking are weird and whimsical.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Rather ironic, isn't it?

Either way though, as some others have said, it just wouldn't be Shadowrun if the matrix rules weren't odd. Even so, while the rules get complex and strange, it does really make GMs and players think about how the Matrix works and what all the various ways are to accomplish different actions and goals. If the system weren't complicated, all those options (if they existed still at all) would be much less likely to be used. Not to mention that by learning the rules as well as you must in order to set up or run even a moderately complex matrix run does encourage more devotion to the setting and such, from both players and GMs. Not really a bad thing, IMO.

[kjones]

Rather ironic, isn't it?

Either way though, as some others have said, it just wouldn't be Shadowrun if the matrix rules weren't odd. Even so, while the rules get complex and strange, it does really make GMs and players think about how the Matrix works and what all the various ways are to accomplish different actions and goals. If the system weren't complicated, all those options (if they existed still at all) would be much less likely to be used. Not to mention that by learning the rules as well as you must in order to set up or run even a moderately complex matrix run does encourage more devotion to the setting and such, from both players and GMs. Not really a bad thing, IMO.

Except when the only answers you can come up with make no sense whatsoever. (See: program degradation.)