Improving Ally Spirits Options

[Daedelus]

A mage may not summon a spirit of greater force than his Magic attribute *2. However this caveat is not repeated under the binding rules. Normally this would not be an issue since bound spirits must be summoned first and are thus limited by that rule. However since increaing a Ally Spirits force requires an additional "Binding" test in the form of the ritual of renewal it bypasses the summoning limitation.
The Question is can an ally spirit's Force be increased beyond the Magic * 2 threshold with the ritual of renewal. By current RAW it seems to be the case, however I would like to get the developers input on the intent of this rule. Whenever possible I like to operate under the "Spirit of the Law" rather than the "Letter of the Law" in my games. If this has been addressed somewhere please give me a book and page reference or a forum link.
Thanks for your help.

[darthmord]

Once the spirit is in existance, you can do whatever you want to it. Raise its stats up to 10x Force? Go for it. It'll just cost you a bucket load of karma.

Remember, the limit is on the summons. Once summoned, those limits no longer apply. Other limits come into play.

[Daedelus]

As I said it seems to be clear by RAW. Unless someone can point to a reference I am missing. I am looking for the developers Intent on the rule. It is quite possibly an oversight, not an intended mechanic. It can lead to some very broken combos. I am ok with accepting, and adjusting to them, but if the intent is different I would prefer to run it that way.

[darthmord]

As I said it seems to be clear by RAW. Unless someone can point to a reference I am missing. I am looking for the developers Intent on the rule. It is quite possibly an oversight, not an intended mechanic. It can lead to some very broken combos. I am ok with accepting, and adjusting to them, but if the intent is different I would prefer to run it that way.

Well, the Binding rules are a different animal. Let's say the best you can summon is Force 12. Some Joe-the-super-mage summons a Force 20 Spirit. *YOU* can attempt to bind it if you can break the mage's control over it. The Binding piece doesn't have a restriction per se other than to set out the requirements to make the test. Force of the spirit in relation to you is NOT one of those requirements.

Just keep in mind that Drain from Binding can be crippling and/or lethal if you aren't careful.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the Binding rules are a different animal. Let's say the best you can summon is Force 12. Some Joe-the-super-mage summons a Force 20 Spirit. *YOU* can attempt to bind it if you can break the mage's control over it. The Binding piece doesn't have a restriction per se other than to set out the requirements to make the test. Force of the spirit in relation to you is NOT one of those requirements.

Just keep in mind that Drain from Binding can be crippling and/or lethal if you aren't careful.

Hell, Drain from Summoning can be crippling and/or lethal if you aren't careful as well...

Keep the Faith

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I don't think surviving the drain from a Force 20 spirit can be crippling or lethal if you're not careful, I think it will kill you if you're not blessed by the Gods lucky (the chance for the spirit to roll 10 or more hits on 40 dice is 90%, go ahead, resist 20P drain). I mean, really, why do people insist on using ridiculous Force spirits for their examples when they really can't exist in game? At least not without GM fiat. Really, anything above Force 10 or so is so ridiculously high risk to bind that having a mage attempt it is tatamount to suicide (and anything Force 8 or above has a risk of immediate death as well). Summoning's a different animal becuase the spirit has so much fewer dice to roll but that has its own problems. So I'd say yes, if you want to spend the karma then boosting an Ally spirit is really the only way to get truly ridiculous spirits.

[Oehler the Black]

Well that's good to sort out, but I have one other question, can you use the Invoking metamagic on an existing Ally Spirit?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Well that's good to sort out, but I have one other question, can you use the Invoking metamagic on an existing Ally Spirit?

No, you can't rebind an Ally Spirit so it's impossible to Invoke it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't think surviving the drain from a Force 20 spirit can be crippling or lethal if you're not careful, I think it will kill you if you're not blessed by the Gods lucky (the chance for the spirit to roll 10 or more hits on 40 dice is 90%, go ahead, resist 20P drain). I mean, really, why do people insist on using ridiculous Force spirits for their examples when they really can't exist in game? At least not without GM fiat. Really, anything above Force 10 or so is so ridiculously high risk to bind that having a mage attempt it is tatamount to suicide (and anything Force 8 or above has a risk of immediate death as well). Summoning's a different animal becuase the spirit has so much fewer dice to roll but that has its own problems. So I'd say yes, if you want to spend the karma then boosting an Ally spirit is really the only way to get truly ridiculous spirits.

I really have to agree with that Patrick... Even 8-10 is generally above what is acceptable at our table... these are spirits that are so powerful that they put the puny mortal summoning them to shame...

Keep the Faith

[Daedelus]

I really have to agree with that Patrick... Even 8-10 is generally above what is acceptable at our table... these are spirits that are so powerful that they put the puny mortal summoning them to shame...

Keep the Faith

I respectfully disagree. It takes fairly little effort to get drain pools to ranges between 16 and 18 dice. This reduces between 5 and 6 points of drain on average. A force 8 spirit gets 2 hits on average. this double to 4 drain. A spirit would need to be force 6 to reach the 6 drain threshold. Assuming a mage with body 2 or less it would take a spirit of force 21 to do the 14 damage neccecary to KO a mage on average.
I am not asking for a opinion on what should be allowed, rather what is intended by the rules as written. I can adjust to whatever my players throw at me. I am just curious as to what the writers intent was for the rule, and if this was a situation that was addressed in thier thought process.

[Walpurgisborn]

I respectfully disagree. It takes fairly little effort to get drain pools to ranges between 16 and 18 dice. This reduces between 5 and 6 points of drain on average. A force 8 spirit gets 2 hits on average. this double to 4 drain. A spirit would need to be force 6 to reach the 6 drain threshold. Assuming a mage with body 2 or less it would take a spirit of force 21 to do the 14 damage neccecary to KO a mage on average.
I am not asking for a opinion on what should be allowed, rather what is intended by the rules as written. I can adjust to whatever my players throw at me. I am just curious as to what the writers intent was for the rule, and if this was a situation that was addressed in thier thought process.

Ok, I have to ask, how do you get 16 to 18 dice for your drain pool. Drain is handled by Drain Attribute(DA) and Willpower. For that 18, you're talking 9s in each. Alternatively, you could initiate and take Centering, but that's going to cost you a bit as well. I'm having difficulty finding who you can easily get drain pools that high.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I respectfully disagree. It takes fairly little effort to get drain pools to ranges between 16 and 18 dice. This reduces between 5 and 6 points of drain on average. A force 8 spirit gets 2 hits on average. this double to 4 drain. A spirit would need to be force 6 to reach the 6 drain threshold. Assuming a mage with body 2 or less it would take a spirit of force 21 to do the 14 damage neccecary to KO a mage on average.
I am not asking for a opinion on what should be allowed, rather what is intended by the rules as written. I can adjust to whatever my players throw at me. I am just curious as to what the writers intent was for the rule, and if this was a situation that was addressed in thier thought process.

Yes, as I said summoning is a different creature. Summoning force 8s is only going to net you damage every once in a while, almost never if you've maxed ur drain attributes/taken focused concentration/have the metamagic/use first aid. Binding them is different though. For force 8s they're going to net 5 successes on average, which means 10P drain. Admittedly for binding you don't have to worry too much about healing drain because it's going to happen during down time, but for something higher than force 10 the average net hits is going to be 7, and the possibility of them rolling 10 hits is only a little less than 20%. Even with 18 drain dice you're still going to take something on the order of 12-16P damage from a bad bind like that, which is enough to make you pass out at least and have the spirit you just tried to bind go out of control. This isn't so much a matter of "Can I do this?" as "If I roll poorly will this outright kill me?" Averages don't matter too much to the brain exploded mage after all.

[dirkformica]

Ok, I have to ask, how do you get 16 to 18 dice for your drain pool. Drain is handled by Drain Attribute(DA) and Willpower. For that 18, you're talking 9s in each. Alternatively, you could initiate and take Centering, but that's going to cost you a bit as well. I'm having difficulty finding who you can easily get drain pools that high.

The Increase Attribute spells tend to work pretty well here. A previously bound spirit of man can cast and sustain them easily enough, or you could get a magician contact to prop you up during the summonings/bindings. Edged, self cast spells into sustaining foci works too (edge used to break force caps.)

[Daedelus]

Bingo. And all of the above options can be had at character creation.
As a point of note for this discussion, My players and I always use averages in our calculations. I will not go into the myriad of reasons for our doing so. It involves both philisophical and imperial reasons, but this is not the forum for that.

[darthmord]

Ok, I have to ask, how do you get 16 to 18 dice for your drain pool. Drain is handled by Drain Attribute(DA) and Willpower. For that 18, you're talking 9s in each. Alternatively, you could initiate and take Centering, but that's going to cost you a bit as well. I'm having difficulty finding who you can easily get drain pools that high.

As was said, it's not that hard.

Elf magic user, Cha tradition. Max Charisma (8) & Max Willpower (6). Magically augment them with Increase Attribute spells. That can raise them to 12 & 9 respectively. That's 21 dice right there for drain.

Sure it costs some during creation & a bit post-creation but hey, you want to be a kickass summoner/binder, right?