D&D 3.5 Char Question Options

[Socinus]

This is a little out of place here, but I was thinking about something for an upcoming 3.5 game a friend is running.

Could you effectively multi-class a Wizard and Sorcerer together? I was thinking a character that had the spell range of a Wizard but the spell depth of a Sorcerer. I dont see any prohibitions against it in the core rulebook, but I wonder if this would be effective or a waste of time.

What do you think?

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, you end up with two half-casters, as if you'd multiclassed a cleric with a wizard. Well, except worse, because you don't even get two different lists.

[Belvidere]

AFAIK, you end up with two half-casters, as if you'd multiclassed a cleric with a wizard. Well, except worse, because you don't even get two different lists.

Not entirely true, I'm a long time player of 3.5 and it depends on how long you think this game will be running and if youre starting at level 1. If starting below level 3 I say no, because you wont be able to keep up but any higher then that look into the prestige class "Ultimate Magus" in the Complete Mage supplement book. It, like the Mystic Theurge allows you to gain the spellcasting of both classes at once as you level, along with some other nice perks. From a damage dealing stand point it allows alot of damage dealing, though it's quite nice for utility spells. I played one until level 16, and I tended to use my sorcerer list for damage and my wizard list for utility.

And I recommend if you're going to do that class, take the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat from Complete Arcane. Increasing your effective caster level by four (up to your actual level) for the purpose of level dependent abilities of your spells. Damage, duration, range, ect. And take that for your corcerer list, because your wizard spells should only be a level behind the norm, whereas sorcerer spells will be two or three levels behind.

Wow... I missed being able to use my vast knowledge of 3.5 to help people powergame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Actually, I just miss 3.5

[Socinus]

We're going to be starting at level 1 but our GM is going to level us up to 10 very quickly in order to start a canned adventure. Levels 1-10 are us getting used to each other and getting everyone used to playing.

[Belvidere]

We're going to be starting at level 1 but our GM is going to level us up to 10 very quickly in order to start a canned adventure. Levels 1-10 are us getting used to each other and getting everyone used to playing.

Then I'd still recommend that prestige class. Go one level sorcerer, three wizard, then ultimate magus 10, anything after that if up to your tastes.

[Socinus]

Out of curiosity, are there any programs to help manage spells?

[Yerameyahu]

Article about Ultimate Magus: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070306

I still would really be leery about taking it, and missing out on higher-level stuff. Still, without this PrC, I'd say the wizard/sorcerer combo is wholly unworkable, so… definitely consider if that's your goal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Delta]

There's a handbook on the wizards character optimization forums explaining how you can use Practiced Spellcaster to go Ultimate Magus without missing out on most of the higher-level stuff on the wizard side (basically, you take Practiced Spellcaster early to boost your sorcerer caster level, so when you reach the levels where Ultimate Magus makes you drop a level of progression in the class with the higher caster level, you actually lose "only" a level of sorcerer, while your wizard side still gets leveled up). If you want to go wizard/sorcerer, I think this would be the way to do it.

[Yerameyahu]

That sounds like a pretty cheap exploit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Practiced Spellcaster boosts effective CL for the purpose of spells and the like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Granted, CharOp assumed the world's worst GM is running the game.

[Dumori]

One could also go warmage/wizard as you'll be doing what your would be with your sorcerer spells specing in damage but you'd get a few added bonuses. Tough I'd have to look at my books a bit more to see if it will be worth it. Though War mage would be a whole sensable calss to add to after maxing Ultimate Magus as it adds a lot of fexability to your combat spells.

[Socinus]

Does anyone know any good programs to help you keep track of and manage spells? I have a shitty time with organization.

I've found a MapTools addon that does it but I cant really figure out how to use the program and it does a ton more than I really need.

[Yerameyahu]

What exactly do you need? A spell list isn't a terribly big thing, especially for sorcerers and non-high-level wizards; you just need a little text document.

[Socinus]

Something to keep track of my available spells, how many spell slots I have left, maybe do some of the tabulation, etc etc

Part of my problem is I'm dyscalculic (Yes, a dyscalculic person actually plays table-top games) so when things get numbers heavy I have a difficult time tracking them and programs like this are an immense help.

[Mesh]

...CharOp assumed the world's worst GM is running the game.

QFT

[Mesh]

...CharOp assumed the world's worst GM is running the game.

QFT

[Oehler the Black]

This is a little out of place here, but I was thinking about something for an upcoming 3.5 game a friend is running.

Could you effectively multi-class a Wizard and Sorcerer together? I was thinking a character that had the spell range of a Wizard but the spell depth of a Sorcerer. I dont see any prohibitions against it in the core rulebook, but I wonder if this would be effective or a waste of time.

What do you think?

Oh god the little hamster powered CharOp wheel in my head is spinning now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Right, straight up you got two problems, book keeping and finding a PrC that blends the two base classes together for maximum awesomeness.
I'll say this now, I actually did a character like this before back when Emas Character sheets were still around and I loved it--Dragonwrought(Copper) Middle Aged Kobold Sorcerer/Focused specialist Conjurer. Anywho time to actually solve your problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Your Bread and Butter Arcane casting hybrid PrC: The Ultimate Magus

For further reading on optimizing a UM see here--> Ultimate Magus Handbook
Note the awesome power of the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat, and as a side note that assuming you take the feature from both Wizard and Sorcerer, your levels stack for determining the benefits of your familiar (I tend to favor the Weasel or the Hummingbird from Dragon Magazine #323 page 98 but that's just me) From my experience you use the Sorcerer side for spells that DO NOT have saves, use em for utility, blasting or directed de-buffs like the ever popular Scorching Ray or Ray of Enfeeblement!
For your Wizard side try to pump up your Int. as much as possible with gear and your initial stats, followed up by say the Spell-Casting Prodigy, and Spell Focus feats. Ideally you want crowd control, battle-field manipulation and buffs on this side (since those are the kind of spells that make DMs cry sad tears in a dark room, like the dirty wannabe megalomaniacs they are.) Also note that any feats you pick for specific schools of spells benefit BOTH your classes.

Second, the bookkeeping can be dangerous but there's a couple of things you can do to make it easier on your self.
First, the HeroForge 3.5 Project is quite possibly one of the finer spell list generating apps you can use.
http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/
What you want specifically from them is the latest version of their spreadsheet dedicated to spellcasting lists called SpellForge, at the time of writing the version you want is 4.4.4.0 Beta.

Now you should keep two lists, one for the sorcerer spells known, and what wizard spells you have in your spellbook(s).
If you have problems keeping track, don't be discouraged! Dedication to a character is never a bad thing!

I would recommend some sort of physical token. Maybe try printing out some index cards for all your wizard spells, and pulling em out when you prep them, that way when you use them, you just put em back in to your deck of spells, and you have an exact count.

For your sorcerer side, perhaps just use blank colored index cards, and put a big number on em to show what level they are. As you use up a slot, put em back in the pile.

That's about all I can come up with atm. Anyone else got any good bookkeeping ideas?

This post has been edited by Oehler the Black: Apr 15 2010, 07:28 AM

[Delta]

That sounds like a pretty cheap exploit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Practiced Spellcaster boosts effective CL for the purpose of spells and the like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Granted, CharOp assumed the world's worst GM is running the game.

You think that's cheap? For CharOp, that's a pretty simple trick, and one that actually works easily without using any loopholes or anything. Practiced Spellcaster boosts your caster level, Ultimate Magus on certain levels only advances the spellcasting class with the lower caster level, that's pretty straightforward.

Yes, there's tons of stuff on the CO boards I'd never recommend trying in an actual game, but this one is simply using a feat exactly as it was written, no questionable rules interpretation or anything at work here. Sure, your GM might still houserule against it, but there's a lot worse stuff I can do with a wizard than this little trick, it just makes the UM on par with a single-classed wizard.

[Faraday]

This is a little out of place here, but I was thinking about something for an upcoming 3.5 game a friend is running.

Could you effectively multi-class a Wizard and Sorcerer together? I was thinking a character that had the spell range of a Wizard but the spell depth of a Sorcerer. I dont see any prohibitions against it in the core rulebook, but I wonder if this would be effective or a waste of time.

What do you think?

The Ultimate Magus is pretty fun with the wizard/sorcerer route, but honestly, it's not optimal even with the practiced spellcaster feat.

No, what you *really* want is a Beguiler/Wizard PRcing into Ultimate Magus. The Beguiler has a set spell list, but it has spells that simply don't EXIST on the wizard/sorceror list. You also don't have to worry about what spells to take for beguiler, with the exception of a couple UM class bonuses (you get to transfer a wizard spell to your other casting class). You also get free trapfinding, more hit points, more skill points (especially at 1st level), and even free armor/weapon proficiencies. Even better, it's an intelligence based casting class, which means oodles of spells per day for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Make sure to take Beguiler at your 1st level since you'll be getting 6+con hit points and 6+int skills for that. Max your Int if you're point-buying, of course.

The biggest disadvantage to the Beguiler is that it has few answers to foes that don't care about illusions or charms. If you fill that gap with your wizard spells, you should be set.

[Oehler the Black]

The Ultimate Magus is pretty fun with the wizard/sorcerer route, but honestly, it's not optimal even with the practiced spellcaster feat.

No, what you *really* want is a Beguiler/Wizard PRcing into Ultimate Magus. The Beguiler has a set spell list, but it has spells that simply don't EXIST on the wizard/sorceror list. You also don't have to worry about what spells to take for beguiler, with the exception of a couple UM class bonuses (you get to transfer a wizard spell to your other casting class). You also get free trapfinding, more hit points, more skill points (especially at 1st level), and even free armor/weapon proficiencies. Even better, it's an intelligence based casting class, which means oodles of spells per day for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Make sure to take Beguiler at your 1st level since you'll be getting 6+con hit points and 6+int skills for that. Max your Int if you're point-buying, of course.

The biggest disadvantage to the Beguiler is that it has few answers to foes that don't care about illusions or charms. If you fill that gap with your wizard spells, you should be set.

Ah good point I forgot about that class. But I also forgot ONE really big perk of the Sorc/Wiz. path, the awesome power of the "Spontaneously Twined Arcane Fusion" nuclear blast. It works like this after taking the full 10 levels of Ultimate Magus, you can spontaneously apply the effects of a metamagic feat to any spell from one of your spell lists by sacrificing a spell slot from the other class list.

So, you ditch an extra lvl 4 spell slot from your wizard side, to use the Twin Spell metamagic feat on a single casting of Arcane Fusion (a lvl 5 spell as per the UM class feature.) So normally if you have some really nasty spells known on your Sorcerer side (and you WILL) your target(s) will be hit by 4 spells at once!

So in one standard action you could pop off a casting of Truestrike for one of the ray spells you'll probably be packing into the nuke, a lvl 4 Orb of [Element] for some old fashioned save-less damage, a Ray of Clumsiness or Enfeeblement because you can, and oh I don't know how about a smattering of Wings of Flurry to all the enemies in the room around for fun.

In other words, Ultimate Magus takes the Sorcerer answer to the Quicken feat, and turns it into "An Earth-shattering Kaboom!"

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* I feel like Practiced Spellcaster is pretty clearly just for things like increasing the save DC; I know that it's a standard trick in CharOp to use it to qualify for classes, but yuck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just for curiosity, why does that let you cast 4 different spells at once, instead of the two spells, twinned?

[Dumori]

Has any looked at the viability of warmage/wizard as I've yet to get to my books the idea intreges me. Plus dose you wizzard spec effect all arcane spells it worded iffy. If so I have a nasty idea for my epic char I'm making.

[Belvidere]

Has any looked at the viability of warmage/wizard as I've yet to get to my books the idea intreges me. Plus dose you wizzard spec effect all arcane spells it worded iffy. If so I have a nasty idea for my epic char I'm making.

The only reason I wouldn't go with the warmage/wizard option is because the warmage truly shines in it's class abilities, especially as you get higher level. I guess the base warmage edge wouldn't be a bad idea. But I'd still prefer sorcerer because even though those spells are probably going to be based around one school, you can have a variety. Whereas with the warmage you're stuck with combat oriented spells.

[Dumori]

No you can take any spell on a few lvls but then a gain yeah you do lose out on that ability. Oh well I know what I'm playing next gestalt game I'm in.

[KarmaInferno]

Has any looked at the viability of warmage/wizard as I've yet to get to my books the idea intreges me. Plus dose you wizzard spec effect all arcane spells it worded iffy. If so I have a nasty idea for my epic char I'm making.

I did a Warmage/Bard/Sublime chord build in 3.5. I don't recall the exact level makeup but I remember it was VERY specific - every skill point and level had to be taken in a certain order or she wouldn't qualify for Sublime Chord early enough to be really good.

With a couple levels of Divine Oracle thrown in cos that's not hard to work in to any caster build. And I think a level of Marshal?

Pretty much all the blastyness of a warmage, with a lot of bard utility. Plus she was a diplomacy goddess - could make a DC 50 diplomacy check in her low teen levels without rolling dice.

I did find it odd that the Warmage has access to Flamestrike, and it's still half Divine damage, despite the class having no divine connections.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-karma

[Dumori]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I love warmages even more so in gestalt games Warmage/swashbuckler is't the most opetermised build but works well till you go down all the weird and wonderful class combos you can pull with that. I think I went Bladesinger as well at some point.