Enhancements and drugs [don't] mix?, Is betameth a +3 initiative for the non-max cybered? Options

[Faraday]

As the description states, I am specifically asking about the interaction of betameth and reaction enhancing cybernetics/bioware like cerebral booster and wired reflexes. I am interested in other drugs and enhancements, just not as much as this. As far as I can figure, drugs happily stack right on top of magical or cybernetic enhancements (IP boosts being the exception).

An example: A street samurai with a natural 5 intuition and 5 reaction and level 2 wired reflexes (so reaction is an augmented 7) needs to take it up a notch, so they pop a betameth. By my understanding, this would improve the samurai's stated attributes to 6 and 9, respectively.

I'd like you, my fellow DSers, to weigh in on with your insights, point out what's wrong with this, or even just affirm that this is the way things work.

Cheers.

[Ol' Scratch]

SR4A p. 342, Wired Reflexes: "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."
SR4A p. 347, Synaptic Boosters: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement."

SR4A p. 82, Initiative: "Initiative is a derived attribute, calculated by adding your character’s Reaction and Intuition together."

They do not stack or combine. You benefit from whichever one is highest. If you have Wired Reflexes (Reaction +1, Initiative Passes +1) and pop Betameth (Reaction +2, Intuition +1), the Betameth would override the Reaction +1 (and thus Initiative +1) from the Wired Reflexes, giving you a total of Reaction +2 and Intuition +1 (and thus Initiative +3). You wouldn't have Reaction +3, Intuition +1 and Initiative +4.

Well, actually, you may very well have Reaction +3 since I'm not aware of anything saying that Reaction bonuses can't stack. But it would only be +2 for purposes of your Initiative.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

My group always thought that combat drugs could be stacked with WR, MbW and SB. Strange...
I know our street samurai won't like this at all.

[Faraday]

SR4A p. 342, Wired Reflexes: "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."
SR4A p. 347, Synaptic Boosters: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement."

SR4A p. 82, Initiative: "Initiative is a derived attribute, calculated by adding your character’s Reaction and Intuition together."

They do not stack or combine. You benefit from whichever one is highest. If you have Wired Reflexes (Reaction +1, Initiative Passes +1) and pop Betameth (Reaction +2, Intuition +1), the Betameth would override the Reaction +1 (and thus Initiative +1) from the Wired Reflexes, giving you a total of Reaction +2 and Intuition +1 (and thus Initiative +3). You wouldn't have Reaction +3, Intuition +1 and Initiative +4.

Well, actually, you may very well have Reaction +3 since I'm not aware of anything saying that Reaction bonuses can't stack. But it would only be +2 for purposes of your Initiative.

See, what I figured was they were referring to *initiative passes* as "initiative enhancement". Stuff like jazz or cram. As usual, I get the feeling RAW is messing with RAI.

[Yerameyahu]

The language is a little messy, but it's probably most prudent to say that Wires and Synaptic Boosters are specifically saying 'incompatible with any Reaction, Intuition, or Initiative enhancement', right? Highest calculated boost wins, and the others have no positive effect?

Dr. Funkenstein raises the question of stacking Reaction bonuses for other purposes, but it still seems like Wires and drugs aren't intended to work together for dodging or driving *either*. I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Voronesh]

My problem is that RAW you get the Reaction bonus stacked, but only the highest Initiative bonus (without stacking).

Since you start to add Reaction boni together, no rule prevents you to do so.

You derive your initiative. RAW prevents you from stacking everything. You only get highest.

Reasoning behind this approach, is the word derived. It seems tgo imply a one way street. Going step by step you only get initiatve and IPs restricted, not reaction, since it is already calculated at that point.

RAI is different. Ofc, you only get the best reaction boost from anything you got in your body atm.

[Ol' Scratch]

See, what I figured was they were referring to *initiative passes* as "initiative enhancement". Stuff like jazz or cram. As usual, I get the feeling RAW is messing with RAI.

If that were the case they wouldn't have to make exceptions for Reaction Enhancers.

Personally I think it's a stupid rule and flat-out ignore it when running a game.

[Faraday]

If that were the case they wouldn't have to make exceptions for Reaction Enhancers.

Personally I think it's a stupid rule and flat-out ignore it when running a game.

This is part of why I actually made the thread in the first place. It appears a bit... strange that a guy with a suprathyroid who's hopped up on betameth would have a higher initiative (assuming equal natural reaction) than any street samurai with max level reflexes/synaptic boosters.

[Mongoose]

He probably wouldn't. Both could hit racial enhanced max, and then that would be it. But yeah, Its just to confusing to have some boosts mix, and some not, in different ways for different stats...

On the other hand, look at it this way; once you've got wired reflexes (or SA, or whatever), your neural system doesn't have normal physiology any more. Drugs that affect a normal CNS (people with Suprathyroids / adrenal pumps still can have a normal CNS) won;t work the same on you.
Of course, that logically leads to a whole realm of medical drugs and toxins ALSO not working on you, although those tend to have less targeted effects.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

SR4A p. 342, Wired Reflexes: "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."
SR4A p. 347, Synaptic Boosters: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement."

SR4A p. 82, Initiative: "Initiative is a derived attribute, calculated by adding your character’s Reaction and Intuition together."

They do not stack or combine. You benefit from whichever one is highest. If you have Wired Reflexes (Reaction +1, Initiative Passes +1) and pop Betameth (Reaction +2, Intuition +1), the Betameth would override the Reaction +1 (and thus Initiative +1) from the Wired Reflexes, giving you a total of Reaction +2 and Intuition +1 (and thus Initiative +3). You wouldn't have Reaction +3, Intuition +1 and Initiative +4.

Well, actually, you may very well have Reaction +3 since I'm not aware of anything saying that Reaction bonuses can't stack. But it would only be +2 for purposes of your Initiative.

That's way too much bookkeeping. Aside from the fact that this interpretation never even occurred to me or anyone in my group, I think it makes more sense to assume that they meant initiative pass and initiative stat modifiers.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's way too much bookkeeping. Aside from the fact that this interpretation never even occurred to me or anyone in my group, I think it makes more sense to assume that they meant initiative pass and initiative stat modifiers.

Again, if that were the case, they wouldn't have to make exceptions for Reaction Enhancers which do nothing but... you guessed it... enhance your Reaction.

[Voronesh]

Reaction Enhances also boost Initiative.

Plus in the German Runner Companion there is Lightning Reflexes for 15 BP. Which explicitly states that its reaction and initiative boosts do not stack with anything else.

Yeah its the age old logic of but there it states both and my ware doesnt state reaction.

And i hate that clunky rule, everything else stacks, and Reaction should be mysteriously unstackable....Suprathyroid stacks agilty. Reaction doesnt? Is reaction anymore powerful, wouldnt think so....

[Yerameyahu]

Well, the fact that there are cases where they say Reaction may not stack can imply that the norm is *to* stack. In some cases, it seems like a clear anti-munchkin mechanic, as opposed to a fluff-based rule. Anyway, from my perspective there are some perfectly legal options: for example, Reaction Enhancers and drugs? Both of those and Suprathyroid, unless I'm forgetting something (it's been a while, since they made it unavailable at chargen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

[Ol' Scratch]

Reaction Enhances also boost Initiative.

Indirectly, just like most Reaction increases. They even say as much in the description for Reaction Enhancers, hence the Initiative comment being in paranthesis.

As previously mentioned, I think it's a stupid rule all around. Especially since they also added caps to your maximum Reaction and Intuition scores anyway. If they really wanted to make a big deal about Wired Reflexes and still keep Reaction Enhancers in the game, they should have done what they did with the Increase Reflxes spell and have Wired Reflexes boost Initiative instead of Reaction. Or if they really wanted to keep it in check and continue to make Reaction Enhancers something few people ever bother with, keep WR as a Reaction/Pass increase and let the augmented maximums rule keep things under control.

It's one of those cases of overcompensation by the designers. It happens in nearly any game. Pen-and-paper RPG or video, it doesn't matter.