SURGE-claws a "Natural Weapon"? Options

[Machiavelli]

Basically what the headline says. Is "Natural Weapon" really a critter "power" or would natural claws like through SURGE would count also as a natural weapon? How would you rule this?

[Patrick Goodman]

Yes, claws gained through SURGE are considered natural weapons.

[Machiavelli]

Is there an official reference? Thank you in advance.

[Patrick Goodman]

Not off the top of my head; the question was how I'd rule it. But I seem to recall, from the dim recesses of my fevered brain (and I mean that literally; I've been sicker than a dog the last few days), when we were first putting SURGE together back in Year of the Comet that things like claws would be coounted as natural weapons. I can't remember how things made the transition to 4th edition, but I think there's something about in Runner's Companion, which is where SURGE is brought back for this edition.

On the other hand, logically, of course they'd be natural weapons. When/if I find a reference for you (barring someone else doing it first), I'll get back to you.

[Machiavelli]

Great, thank you. Wish you well soon.

[Ol' Scratch]

There's a difference between natural weapons and Natural Weapons. Everyone has natural weapons, be it a fist, a bite, or a head slam. Natural Weapons, the power, function like Killing Hands, allowing the creature special benefits particularly if they're dual-natured.

By the rules, no, SURGE Claws are not Natural Weapons. You're still only going to do (CHA/2) damage if you try to attack a wholly astral target.

[Patrick Goodman]

And that was what my feverish brain was forgetting. Not having my books with me didn't help.... Thanks, Doc!!

[Stahlseele]

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from combinging killing hands with claws for killing claws either, right?

[Draco18s]

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from combinging killing hands with claws for killing claws either, right?

Unless you update your rules and add in "Monks can't class abilities with natural weapons" thereby making monstrous monks less cool.*

*Some part of my brain is remembering That Other Game doing this. But I don't recall from where.
(Am I thinking Pathfinder?)

[Stahlseele]

Unless you update your rules and add in "Monks can't class abilities with natural weapons" thereby making monstrous monks less cool.*

*Some part of my brain is remembering That Other Game doing this. But I don't recall from where.
(Am I thinking Pathfinder?)

*kicks Draco in the shin*
Shadowrun, you speak it? ^^

[Dakka Dakka]

Just to add to the confusion absolutely mundane dogs have the Critter Power Natural Weapon. As such they should by RAW pierce ItNW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

OK, that's Dumb. And Stupid. Guard-Dogs against Spirits.
Why do Trolls not get this for their Horns? O.o

[Draco18s]

*kicks Draco in the shin*
Shadowrun, you speak it? ^^

Hey! I was being silly. Should have been pretty obvious.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, it was ^^

[Dakka Dakka]

OK, that's Dumb. And Stupid. Guard-Dogs against Spirits.
Why do Trolls not get this for their Horns? O.o

I don't know, why they don't get it. What I did was just judicial application of the rules concerning dogs (or most other mundane predators for that matter) and ItNW. I know it is silly and neither the trolls' horns nor the dogs' teeth should have that power. But it shouldn't be a problem since spirits cannot enter the physical plane by RAW anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Well, those with materialization power can, right?

[Dakka Dakka]

Not By RAW. All spirits start on the astral plane. There only manabased powers may be used, but all Entrance-Powers (Materialization, Possession, Inhabitation) are Type P. Sorry Spirits you have to stay at home (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

*blink blink blink* ookaayy . . O.o

[Draco18s]

*blink blink blink* ookaayy . . O.o

Its one of those "the rules are stupid" things. Materialization is a Physical power, so it doesn't work on the Astral plane (where spirits are before they Materialize).

Fortunately, no one actually cares.

Its just a joke.

[Dakka Dakka]

Fortunately, no one actually cares.

Its just a joke.

QFT

[Saint Sithney]

This is the silliest collection of rules since the Ghosts vs. pepper spray argument...

[CeeJay]

Just to add to the confusion absolutely mundane dogs have the Critter Power Natural Weapon. As such they should by RAW pierce ItNW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Actualy they tried to clear up that mess by rewriting the Natural Weapon Power in Running Wild. Here's the complete entry from RW:

Natural Weapon (Mundane)
The critter possesses some natural form of weaponry capable of inflicting Physical damage, such as claws, sharp teeth, or a
stinger. The description of this power describes the nature of the attack as well as its Damage Value and Armor Penetration
modifiers, where applicable. Natural Weapon may be either melee weapons or ranged weapons, and critters follow the standard rules of combat when using them. Critters use the Unarmed Combat skill to attack with natural melee weapons and the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill to attack with natural ranged weapons.

Note that Natural Weapon is a now mundane power (not a paranormal power, a distinction introduced with Running Wild). It says nothing at all about the old synergies with being dual natured. Of course, if you follow this ruling dual natured critters like barghests or hellhounds will have to revert to astral combat to attack and harm astral beings, which they can't as they don't possess that skill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) . Interestingly most dual natured critters from Running Wild do possess the astral combat skill...

Just to add some more confusion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

-CJ

[Machiavelli]

This has already been cleared in the FAQ-section of the official SR-forum. If the critter lacks the skill "astral combat" he can take "unarmed combat" instead and uses his physical attribute (agility) for the attack test.

One thing i really don´t understand is, how some come to the opinion "natural weapon" would bypass ItnW. The original question was just about which attributes and skills you can use if you HAVE the ability of "natural weapon", so that you could save BP´s for astral combat and simply take unarmed combat instead. It never was about if natural weapon would be able to replace killing hands. It was just about killing hands being useless in astral combat.^^

[Ol' Scratch]

They seriously need to get over the archaic "all astral attacks do Charisma damage, omg" rule and just let dual-natured/astrally perceiving characters attack astral forms normally. Leave the Willpower + Astral Combat and Charisma damage stuff for those attacking with their force of will/traditional astral combat. It's silly that they tried so hard to make the Astral Combat skill "important" in this way regardless of all the issues and silliness that results because of it.

[Machiavelli]

I don´t know if it is the first time, but i agree 100%^^

Really perfect would be, if you could replace your unarmed combat skill with e.g. bladed weapons (if you have the natural weapon power or the SURGE effect. So you could fight "unarmed" with you claws AND you would be able to use edged weapons at the same time. Would save 2 skills.^^