Drug Addiction thresholds Options

[jimbo]

Barring a source reference (from Arsenal?), I guess this thread will result in a lot of opinions with hopefully a concensus.

The SR4a pg. 257 has thresholds for resisting drug addictions with general guidelines...1 for hallucinagens, 2 for stimulants, 3 for narcotics, but only BTLs are specifically addressed. Now, most hallucinagens are easy to figure out, but how do I choose between stimulant and narcotic? Some drugs in their flavor text use words like hyperactivity, stimulates, hyperactive, etc. but I would almost think Nitro, Novacoke, and Kamikaze should be a 3 threshold.

I'm also particularly interested in thoughts on Jazz, Cram, Psyche, and Red Mescaline thresholds.

Thanks!

[Dumori]

The term narcotic (när-kŏt'ĭk) strictly refers to any psychoactive compound with morphine-like effects. So if it gives pain tolerance its a narcotic however the deffinition they are using for narcotic is left unstated as in US law cocaine is also included but not medicaly. Other than that its a stim or hallucinogen.

[Ol' Scratch]

Stimulants would include the more legal and over-the-counter options like Betel and Hurlg (though I guess that one is more of a hallucinogenic). Narcotics would be the 'hardcore' ones like Cram and Psyche. You just have to use your best judgement. I think it's lame to introduce rules like that then completely force GMs to determine individual drugs on their own, but that's just me.

Psyche, in particular, needs some kind of major drawback. There's really no reason for a magician not to take it whenever entering a stressful situation. It's just a free boost to Intuition, Logic, and sustaining with nothing to show for it on the negative side of things. At least with a higher threshold, you'll eventually end up in a bad place through the addiction rules. If it were only a 1 or 2, it's all but free candy as nearly anyone can reliably handle that (especially with the use of Edge).

[Dr.Rockso]

For simplicity's sake, I'd say stimulants are uppers(jazz,betameth,eX,kamikaze) and narcotics are downers(bliss,heroin). Might have to make a few judgment calls regardless though.

EDIT:removed booze from downers.3 threshold for beer is icky

[Dumori]

For simplicity's sake, I'd say stimulants are uppers(jazz,betameth,eX,kamikaze) and narcotics are downers(bliss,heroin). Might have to make a few judgment calls regardless though.

EDIT:removed booze from downers.3 threshold for beer is icky

Thats just wrong....
Narcotics are opiates and opiates are addictive as fuck. I might load up every damn list of drugs in SR4 and list them as well as I can medically XD I might have to rope in my pharmacist friend on the tricker ones.
Though if you do it with only the 3 headings in the BBB some drugs fall out of them therefor being none addictive or threshold 0.

[Voronesh]

Dr. Funkenstein you hit the nail square on.

Basically the less downsides a drug has, the higher the addiction threshold should be. It works for alcohol in RL.

If you dont get hangovers, you have a higher chance of developing an addiction for it.

So on one scale you have the pure addiciton level of something. And OTOH you get a modifier due to the down after you take the drug, if its minimal, you can up the addiction level. If it has a big downphase afterwards. Chances to become addicted are lower.

[Dr.Rockso]

Thats just wrong....
Narcotics are opiates and opiates are addictive as fuck. I might load up every damn list of drugs in SR4 and list them as well as I can medically XD I might have to rope in my pharmacist friend on the tricker ones.
Though if you do it with only the 3 headings in the BBB some drugs fall out of them therefor being none addictive or threshold 0.

Not sure I follow. Heroin is a downer...and an opiate...and thus has the highest threshold for addiction tests. Making them extremely addictive. How is that different then what you said?
Also, I think Wordman made an awesome write up of a whack of drugs...Ill link when I can remember where it is.

[jimbo]

The term narcotic (när-kŏt'ĭk) strictly refers to any psychoactive compound with morphine-like effects. So if it gives pain tolerance its a narcotic however the definition they are using for narcotic is left unstated as in US law cocaine is also included but not medicaly. Other than that its a stim or hallucinogen.

Thanks to all so far...this in particular is great for establishing narcotic thresholds.

Dr. Funk, I have to agree with you...it really wouldn't have been hard to include in a drug's stat block "Addiction Threshold: X".

Psyche really is a tough one...game balance cries for a 3, but it doesn't scream narcotic to me. The text talks of hyperactivity, etc. which seems more stimulant to me.

[Dumori]

From the SR4A and Arsenal (none magical compounds)
(gone with including cocaine as a narcotic)

Hallucinogenics
Deepweed
Zen
Aisa
Red Mescaline
Snuff
Woad
Hurlg
Laés+Leäl

Stimulants
Cram
Jazz
Betameth
Betel
eX
Ripper
Psyche
Overdrive

Narcotics
Bilss
K-10
Kamikaze
Nitro
Novacoke
NoPaint
Pixie Dust
Crimson Orchid

Other(though that don't fall nicely input welcome)
Dopadrine(narcotic?)
G3
Guts(stimulant?)
Oxygenated Fluorocarbons
Push(stimulant?)
Slab
Zero
Trance

I'm not fully happy with my listing but a lot of them work as they are. Though with the Other drugs its just iffy as to what threshold to give them.

[Yerameyahu]

These are fun graphics for the classification of different drugs into groups like 'narcotic', etc.:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visu...ns/drugs-world/
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/t...x-Drugchart.png

The upshot is that a 3-way distinction is going to include many mis-nomers, so it's probably better, as has been said, to GM-rule it based on how 'good' it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dumori]

Not sure I follow. Heroin is a downer...and an opiate...and thus has the highest threshold for addiction tests. Making them extremely addictive. How is that different then what you said?
Also, I think Wordman made an awesome write up of a whack of drugs...Ill link when I can remember where it is.

Not all downers are narcotics a LOT are hallucinogenics or just plane depressents.

[Rasumichin]

I've always found three- or fourfold drug categorizations to be a bit sub-complex, especially because a lot of drugs can easily fall into more than one category, but as it's the system SR uses, i'll stick to these categories here.

Regarding the unclassified substances in Dumori's post, my guess would be :
Dopadrine(narcotic)
G3 (wouldn't call for addiction tests, it doesn't seem to have any recreational value)
Guts(stimulant)
Oxygenated Fluorocarbons (stimulant)
Push(stimulant)
Slab (narcotic)
Zero (no recreational value either, unless used to boost another drug; test for the boosted drug instead, applying the rules for speedballing as found in Arsenal)
Trance (stimulant)

Strictly speaking, K10 and novacoke would be stimulants through and through.
Of course, GMs may feel that both should have a higher addictive potential.
Keep in mind though that, as soon as novacoke's effects wear off, WIL is reduced to 1.
Which makes addiction tests to it a bitch, even if the threshold is 2 instead of 3.

Of course, the thresholds are just a rough guideline in the first place.
Another important fine tuning mechanism for the GM is how frequently Addiction tests are called for.
Alcohol can be extremely addictive, but a drinking problem needs a lot of time to develop.
Modelling this would rather include a GM waiting for a while to call for the next Addiction test than lowering the threshlod.
All of this needs some consideration on behalf of the GM.
Factors for this include the severity of aftereffects, as has been mentioned here.
Other factors are based on the interaction with the brain's reward pathway.
Habituation ("mental addiction") to a substance is basically a form of involuntary self-conditioning.
There's a feeling of reward (the rush as the drug kicks in) that the brain asociates with the act of taking the drug- the closer this rush follows intake, the more the substance's addictive potential is increased.
Which means that forms of consumption that lead to a fast onset (smoking, inhaling, and especially injecting intravenously) are more habituating than methods with a moderate onset time (snorting, intramuscular injection) or slow onset (sublingual application, oral consumption, transdermal use- note that slap patches seem to work faster than today's forms of transdermal drug administration).
A crash at the end of the duration works as an additional negative reinforcement (the user associates sobering up with negative emotions and wants to counteract this with taking more), unlike waking up the next morning with a hangover (unless the user decides to battle this with redosing as well, then things get ugly).
This is why crack is more habit-forming than cocaine in powder form, even though chemical differences between both forms are minimal.

Additional factors include personal predisposition (which is represented by the character's attributes and pre-existing Addiction Qualities), as well as external factors like stress, depression and so on.

Of course, there's cases where one has to take the entire mechanics with a grain of salt.
For example, i wouldn't even call for Addiction tests for red mesc beyond a Mild Addiction.
Psychedelics generally have a very low habituating potential.
Not saying they are harmless, but their risks are hardly comparable to most other drugs.
Habitual use is extremely rare, substance cravings are almost never encountered with such substances, even with the users who consume them on a regular basis.
Regular use of such compounds can lead to other problems than habit formation, such as behavorial changes, perceptive disturbances, triggering of underlying mental conditions and so on.
Therefore, i tend to use the mechanics for Addiction tests to determine whether they cause other negative effects, such as acquiring negative mental Qualities (Flashbacks, Scorched etc.) of the same point value as the next Addiction level.

[Dumori]

I've always found three- or fourfold drug categorizations to be a bit sub-complex, especially because a lot of drugs can easily fall into more than one category, but as it's the system SR uses, i'll stick to these categories here.

Regarding the unclassified substances in Dumori's post, my guess would be :
Dopadrine(narcotic)
G3 (wouldn't call for addiction tests, it doesn't seem to have any recreational value)
Guts(stimulant)
Oxygenated Fluorocarbons (stimulant)
Push(stimulant)
Slab (narcotic)
Zero (no recreational value either, unless used to boost another drug; test for the boosted drug instead, applying the rules for speedballing as found in Arsenal)
Trance (stimulant)

Strictly speaking, K10 and novacoke would be stimulants through and through.
Of course, GMs may feel that both should have a higher addictive potential.
Keep in mind though that, as soon as novacoke's effects wear off, WIL is reduced to 1.
Which makes addiction tests to it a bitch, even if the threshold is 2 instead of 3.

With the Ks and novacoke they seam to be combat drugs with some form of opiate in them with all that pain resistance. Oxygenated Fluorocarbons (stimulant) really pushing term wise same with a lot of others in the other group I thend to think they shoudl all be threshold 1 or 0. 0 for thing likes zero and slab ect



Edit damn my good habit of holding shift after useing a fullstop XD

[Rasumichin]

With the Ks and novacoke they seam to be combat drugs with some form of opiate in them with all that pain resistance.

Well, novacoke is openly refered to as an improved version of cocaine.
Cocaine is a local anesthetic.
It immediately numbs the mucous membranes upon contact, which is why you can see police officers in TV shows testing white powder by dipping it on their tongue (something one shouldn't do in real life, there's enough other white powders where that would already be a lethal dose).
In fact, many local anesthetics used in contemporary medicine are cocaine derivatives which only retain it's anesthetic properties without providing a high.
But effects wise, cocaine's always classified as a simulant.
It also does not work on any opioid receptors, but as an antagonist for serotonin, dopamin and norepinephrin receptors, which is a typical mode of action for stimulants.
One should also keep in mind that many stimulants decrease susceptibility to pain- it's a side effect of being pushed into an adrenaline rush, which makes it different from directly tinkering with the brain's processing of pain, like analgesics do, but may have similar effects, especially in a combat situation.
Can't say anything about K10 or Kamikaze, as both seem not to be based on a real-world substance.

The problem here lies in the classes of stimulants, narcotics, hallucinogens.
Normally, analgesic (pain reliever) would be a class of it's own, as well as local anesthetic or dissociative anesthetic (like ketamine or PCP, for example).
Whereas classic "downer" properties would fall under headers such as tranquilizer, depressant, intoxicant etc.
I'd assume that the latter, in combination with the addictive potential of opiates, would be the reason for the threshold number, not the pain relief or anesthetic factor.

Oxygenated Fluorocarbons (stimulant) really pushing term wise same with a lot of others in the other group I thend to think they shoudl all be threshold 1 or 0. 0 for thing likes zero and slab ect

Oxygenated Fluorocarbons do increase endurance and Agility, that's pretty much classic stimulant territory, which is why i labeled them as such.
I wouldn't rate them as highly addictive, though.
So i'd agree with lower thresholds for them, same for the other examples (though polydrug abuse of Zero and another drug would likely increase the addictive potential of the drug it's combined with).

In any case, one should view the thresholds for the different classes as guidelines (they are presented as such in the BBB anyway).
I'd assume that Hurlg is less addictive than Bliss, even though i'd label both as narcotics.

Slab's a bit problematic here, it's presented mostly as a better version of Narcoject.
It's presentation as a date-rape drug sounds as if it was based on GHB, which does have some addictive potential if used recreationally, but i doubt that this would come up in game.
I agree that it wouldn't make sense to call for an Addiction test if a PC is knocked out with Slab rounds, of course.

[Method]

I will echo some of the above.

First, the term narcotic is almost useless here. Its legal definition should be banished from the mind, as it has almost no relevance to a drug's class, properties or potential for abuse/addiction. The medical definition is very specific (an opioid derivative that works on the µ receptor) but thats beyond the scope of SR's classification system.

Which brings my the next point: the "classes" presented in the Addiction Threshold table on page 257 of SR4A are ridiculously over simplified (as others have pointed out) and a drug's potential for addiction is not really dependent on class. There are, for example narcotics that have very low addiction potential (like methadone). Most hallucinogens are not addictive (even benadryl can cause hallucinations under certain conditions), but they sure fuck up your brain if over used. Anyway, the point is that I would disregard that table, except for the BTL's (which seem logical).

As someone has already said, the addictive potential of a drug (without going into the neurophysiology) is based on maximal reward with minimal punishment. Thats why methadone has low addictive potential, but hydromorphone is ridiculously addictive. Both are narcotics (in the truest sense of the word) but hydromorphone is fast acting and gives an intense euphoria, where as methadone is so long-acting that you get almost no high from it at all (thus it is used to prevent withdrawal in heroin addicts- just enough µ stimulation to prevent withdrawal, but no reward).

So I would say as the GM you should consider how great the benefits are and (roughly) match the addiction threshold accordingly. It may seem metagame-y, but not really. The whole point of these drugs is that runners would gravitate to them to gain an edge. Dependency is only a step away from there.

[Method]

Cocaine is a local anesthetic.

The analgesic properties of cocaine (and other local anesthetics) is due to its effects on the sensory components of peripheral nerves and spinal cord. In the brain it is a stimulant. It causes the release of neurotransmitters that heighten arousal. So it is both an anesthetic and a stimulant, which is the problem. The "classes" presented in SR4A are too narrow to make distinctions in any logical way.

Oxygenated Fluorocarbons do increase endurance and Agility, that's pretty much classic stimulant territory, which is why i labeled them as such.

OFs would have almost no (neurophysiological) addictive potential and are not stimulants (they do not increase the level of arousal). I appreciate your approach (you're trying to shoe-horn them into SR's limited classification system as best you can) but I would put OFs as Threshold 1.

Edit: In fact, where I to house rule this I would say:

-- Threshold 1 = weak psychological dependence (pot, hallucinogens, OFs, Dreamchips, Bliss, etc)
-- Threshold 2 = strong psychological / weak physical dependence (cocaine, nicotine novacoke, Long Haul, Cram)
-- Threshold 3 = strong physical dependence (heroin, ethanol, Kamakazi, Nitro).

For magicians, I would increase the threshold for by +1 for any drug that enhances magical ability, because their abilities are so tied to their perceptions (a la geas/crisis of faith... "I need the Psyche or my magic won't work, man!!")

[Dumori]

I really think we should just totality re do the system with some good house rules on drugs in the 6th world. I would perhaps put OFs at threshold 0 being a medical treatment that takes a while to kick in and such but 0-1 is a fine line. Then again how often you test on it is another big factor. Are any of you guy up for working on expanded drug addiction rules. Rasumichin you seam to have a beet background knowledge than I do. Also my choice to bung cocaine in with the narcotics was purely game balance with some internal logic.

[tagz]

Barring a source reference (from Arsenal?), I guess this thread will result in a lot of opinions with hopefully a concensus.

Consensus? You're... new to Dumpshock aren't you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

But yeah, I've glanced at the table and threw my hands up in the air in frustration. I don't know anything about recreational drugs in the real world, the last thing I want to do is research drug categories so I know how to make thresholds that may not even make sense to a given drug. The best way to handle it in my experience is to balance the threshold with the benefits, the negatives, and the side effects the character receives like Method and Dr.Funk have mentioned.

[Method]

Are any of you guy up for working on expanded drug addiction rules.

I'd pitch in.

[Rasumichin]

I've been thinking of writing some house rules up for this as well, i'd be glad to help.

[Dumori]

Sweet. I think that's the first time I've see two agreeing post in a row here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Patrick the Gnom...]

As much as I respect the medical opinions of Method, Dumori, and Rasumichin, I feel I must put in my two nuyen for game balance's sake. Drugs like Jazz and Cram should have higher addiction thresholds than the 1 for being stimulants, otherwise any player with human average mental stats will be able to make the addiction test 90% of the time and remain hopped up on Cram for days at a time with no drawbacks besides sleep deprivation. Considering the extreme benefits of extra IPs, those two drugs in particular should have an addiction threshold increase for that reason alone. Other drugs, like No Paint and Laes, should have a lower threshold due to the their relative uselessness in game for their users. Certainly Laes and Slab should have significantly lower addiction thresholds as it is distinctly possible to have PCs or NPCs dosed on them unwillingly for months in captivity and it doesn't make much sense to have them come out of it with an extreme addiction to a drug that makes them die for 6 hours or a Burn Out.

I also have some concerns about making K-10 a 3 threshold addiction drug even though it has some pretty extreme benefits. For one thing anyone crashing from K-10 is likely to either die or become a slavering beast man after even one dose so that should probably have some bearing on the thinking of addicts. Secondly, mild addiction for anything has the user being forced into withdraw after one week of not taking the drug. Considering downtime in shadowrun is usually on the scope of months that means that players may be forced into taking a potentially immediately lethal drug dozens of times with no benefit over the course of a game with each use having a significant chance of causing an even worse addiction. K-10 is also extremely expensive and hard to obtain, any doses a character takes outside of combat for failing an addiction test are going to take a pretty huge chunk out of his time and budget, certainly more than most other narcotics. Overall, the base penalties of taking K-10 even once tend to outweigh its actual benefits, making it highly addictive just spirals its penalties out of control to the point that even its one time emergency use by a character is pretty much going to just kill him. I would put K-10 at a threshold 1 for addiction, even if it is a narcotic, just because of all of its other drawbacks.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I like Method's approach. It is simple and intuitive. Now we just need all the medical experts and alien (Rasumichin) to discuss what is considered light, medium and heavy addictive drugs.

My humble and unexperienced opinion is that any drug that gives you the feeling of euphoria and invicibility should already be a heavy drug. Kamikaze, K10, Guts et al should all be here.

Anyway, I really like this discussion.

[Dumori]

Alcohol can give me afeeling of euphoria and invincibility I would say thats as addictive as my pain meds or even caffeine(though on that latter point I know is medical iffy).

[Method]

As much as I respect the medical opinions of Method, Dumori, and Rasumichin, I feel I must put in my two nuyen for game balance's sake.

Well, the house rule I proposed above was very rough. Dammit Patrick, I'm a doctor not a game designer!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I would agree that you have to incorporate game balance. If we were to really hammer this out, I would suggest we find a way to "weigh" and sum the modifiers for each drug to get a "net effect" and base the threshold off that. Drugs with a positive net effect should have higher thresholds for addiction, whereas drugs with a negative net effect should have a threshold of 0 or 1.

Of course, the problem there is that not all the drug effects can be reduced to simple DP modifiers, and even then some would argue that DP modifiers affecting certain attributes (like RXN) are more powerful (i.e.- should be weighted higher) than others (like maybe INT).

Also interesting to note, if we could make this work we would also have a rough system for designing new drugs (perhaps something along the lines of the spell design rules in SM).