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> There is God in Shadowrun?, Cleric-like powers...
Juca Bala
post Apr 15 2010, 10:26 PM
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Well, one of my players wanted to make a retired priest that keeps his faith and, for it, is able to cast some "miracles" (read it as spells). Well, it is simple to do, only a tradition an such but this is keeping me thinking: There is an official word if god actually does exist in the Shadowrun cannon rules? There is an omniscient and omnipotent being watching over all the people? If so then in what book is this stated?

Thanks.
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 15 2010, 10:30 PM
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As far as I know, no. There are tantalizing hints that some of the religious magical traditions may be on to something, however.
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Penta
post Apr 15 2010, 10:30 PM
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Nope, not stated either way, for very good reason.

In addition, magical powers almost always manifest at puberty, ie in one's teens.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 15 2010, 10:31 PM
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There is if your character believes in one. Everyone else will just roll their eyes and write it off as a mentor spirit at best.

There's several traditions which focus on Christian style beliefs. Street Magic has one, and I think Threats 2 goes into quite a bit of detail about the Knights Templar and their faith. (I always liked their take, and it would be easy to convert the rules to 4th edition.)
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hermit
post Apr 15 2010, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE
There is an official word if god actually does exist in the Shadowrun cannon rules?

Yes. The word is "meh".

There are mentor spirits, but they are neither omniscent nor omnipotent. Also, they are rather uncaring about anyone but their special followers, and most of the time, even towards them, save for providing the powers.

The world wouldn't work very well with an omniscnet godly entity abounding, though. It is a dystopian world of coldness and uncaringness, after all. If there was 'god', he'd be of the tentacly, sanity loss inducing kind, morelikely than not.

That said, Sky Father makes for a decent 'god' figure, as does the Dark King, depending on the fire and brimstone factor in your PC. Dragonslayer might work for slayer type characters.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 15 2010, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (Juca Bala @ Apr 15 2010, 11:26 PM) *
There is an official word if god actually does exist in the Shadowrun cannon rules? There is an omniscient and omnipotent being watching over all the people? If so then in what book is this stated?


Street Magic states that Shadowrun doesn't make any statement in that direction.

Most major religions also do not view magic as a miracle.
But as magic.
Which is either a gift from god or a curse, depending on the outlook of the particular sect.

There are a few congregations (of the snake-handling variety, usually) that do believe that their priests perform miracles, while they are actually casting spells.
No rules are given for them and Street Magic relegates them to NPC status, though you could easily houserule that.
I'd suggest a Possession-based tradition with CHA or INT as the drain stat in such cases.

Otherwise, most magical traditions in Street Magic have a religious component and their followers double as priests in some cases.
In fact, every major religion has it's own tradition presented there, as well as several smaller ones (Satanism, Wicca, Voodoo, Asatru and so on).

For both Catholic churches, the only tradition eligible for priests is Christian Theurgy (in the case of the wacky Westphalians, it's also the only legal way to practice magic at all).
If you're going for a magically active Christian priest, that's the way to go unless you want him to be a Southern Baptist or something like that.
In this case, see above for homebrew.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 16 2010, 12:05 AM
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SR4A seems to indicate that when Magic came back to the world, and Meta humans and everything else... that Religion itself took quite the header. Most couldn't explain it and many wouldn't acknowledge it at all. Seeming to take the 'ignore it and it'll go away' sort of mindset.

They did.

It didn't.

Many people sort of 'gave up' on religions as a huge motivator in their everyday lives. To the point that the Christians, Muslims and Jews have had to team up (( I know that sounds bad but I didn't write it)) to remain viable as religions and work together now.

I think there were some holdouts in some of the Islamic nations, but they didn't do amazingly well. Most especially after the Ayatollah declared holy war on all the Awakened things... annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd One of the Great Dragons popped up over Tehran and... destroyed the entire city, saying something to the effect of 'If you want to war on us. I'll show you what you'll war against'. His destruction of Tehran (( and the Ayatollah as well)) Sort of put a stop to that happyhorseshit.
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hermit
post Apr 16 2010, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE
To the point that the Christians, Muslims and Jews have had to team up (( I know that sounds bad but I didn't write it)) to remain viable as religions and work together now.

In Seattle. In other places, not so much. The church remains a power, albeit battered by a string of stupid popes and scanals not unlike it's real scandals.

QUOTE
His destruction of Tehran (( and the Ayatollah as well)) Sort of put a stop to that happyhorshit.

Uhm, no. There are several radical Islamist organisations - Jihad X, Black Scorpions, Islamic Jihad, Islamic Unity, and a couple others I don't remember. Shiite Islam took a formidable punch, but Arabia reinstat.ed a Caliph (who was a Shedim after Israel offed him and a MNaster Shedim took him over). There is also the Islamic Renaissance, a bunch of modern and notably non-maniac, non-stupid muslims that is prevalent in europe, where Islam has grown stronger overall, not weaker.

Christianity also has it's share of fuckups, and remains a factor in states like Italy, Spain, Russia or the CAS. It also is the core element around which anti-Aztech resistance in Aztlan bundles, though Christianity has been officially outlawed there.

Judaism is basically unchanged.

The religions that thrived most, however, were the pro-magic ones - Shinto and Lama buddhism, Hinduism, all sorts of Animism and esotheric fringe stuff like the various denominations that produce shamans. Also, there is the ancient Elven religion, which is similar to Hinduism in a lot of ways.

Also, it is worth mentioning that in Christianity, there is another magical tradition that is more shamanic in nature, summons Angels and is slowly being accepted by the Church and the wacko German counterpope. The German Catholics have a funny relation towards Neo's Clone Army, btw: They use mancers to off AI.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 16 2010, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 15 2010, 07:25 PM) *
In Seattle. In other places, not so much. The church remains a power, albeit battered by a string of stupid popes and scanals not unlike it's real scandals.


Uhm, no. There are several radical Islamist organisations - Jihad X, Black Scorpions, Islamic Jihad, Islamic Unity, and a couple others I don't remember. Shiite Islam took a formidable punch, but Arabia reinstat.ed a Caliph (who was a Shedim after Israel offed him and a MNaster Shedim took him over). There is also the Islamic Renaissance, a bunch of modern and notably non-maniac, non-stupid muslims that is prevalent in europe, where Islam has grown stronger overall, not weaker.


Put a stop to the organized war against the Awakened, as an organized state/religious war. A few crazy sects smaller than the humanist poli club, I wasn't really counting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant LARGE SCALE.

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 15 2010, 07:25 PM) *
Christianity also has it's share of fuckups, and remains a factor in states like Italy, Spain, Russia or the CAS. It also is the core element around which anti-Aztech resistance in Aztlan bundles, though Christianity has been officially outlawed there.

Judaism is basically unchanged.

The religions that thrived most, however, were the pro-magic ones - Shinto and Lama buddhism, Hinduism, all sorts of Animism and esotheric fringe stuff like the various denominations that produce shamans. Also, there is the ancient Elven religion, which is similar to Hinduism in a lot of ways.

Also, it is worth mentioning that in Christianity, there is another magical tradition that is more shamanic in nature, summons Angels and is slowly being accepted by the Church and the wacko German counterpope. The German Catholics have a funny relation towards Neo's Clone Army, btw: They use mancers to off AI.


Not sure about these. Maybe in books I don't have (( possible)) or parts I missed. (( also possible))

Where should I look for that stuff?
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Mongoose
post Apr 16 2010, 12:52 AM
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I believe the Catholic Church takes the stance that magic use is not divine or miraculous in natures (else they'd have to saint every mage) but is also not a sin, in itself.
So yeah, you could have a priest who is a mage, but he's not performing miracles. He's using god given talents to perform thaumaturgy. If he has a mentor spirit, it could be God speaking to him, just as God speaks to ANY of the faithful. The fact that this mentor manifests in his magical ability is thaumaturgical, not miraculous.

The church pretty much HAS to take this stance, else they would have to aknowledge that every shaman, satanist, and wican who can sling mojo has a direct line to the divine (albeit maybe a lesser divine), and that mean aknowledging that JHVA isn't the only god around.
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Glyph
post Apr 16 2010, 01:55 AM
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Ironically, adopting this hermetic type of view means that Christians are actually right about Magic, since that is how SR magic functions - any kind of belief system, religious or otherwise, works for channeling the mojo.
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Kid Chameleon
post Apr 16 2010, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 15 2010, 06:25 PM) *
Uhm, no. There are several radical Islamist organisations - Jihad X, Black Scorpions, Islamic Jihad, Islamic Unity, and a couple others I don't remember.


The Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea.
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Kronk2
post Apr 16 2010, 04:55 AM
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How I would handle miracles in general would be to make it a special individual "skill", with the value of that skill representing how favored that person was on that day. ( I would use a basic +/- 2 with a chosen number as a base) You would have to have a desired effect in mind, and make things happen on the fly, with effects ranging in difficulty from easy (commanding elements) to mildly difficult (unlimited matter replication) to the extreme of raising the dead. (although if I remember from my kirking Jesus had various degrees of trouble with that)

Street magic has a few paragraphs on this, but mostly it states that its up to the group to decide that. I am using a the christ as an example because I am familiar with it/him. Although One could say the Hero Twins from Azzie lore qualify as miracle workers as well. (they knew how to kill you so that you would spontaneously resurrect) One could also argue for the monkey king being a miracle man as well.
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toturi
post Apr 16 2010, 06:27 AM
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If he wants to be a miracle worker, then he should really really invest in a diverse skill set and a lot of Edge. With Edge, he could justifiable say that someone upstairs really listens to his pleas.
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AngelisStorm
post Apr 16 2010, 06:51 AM
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I like Toturi's suggestion.

I've heard of numerous people who have played Adepts who didn't realize they were magical.

It's harder for Magicians, since they have to learn spells and all. However, it shouldn't be undoable, if the GM is willing to help out a bit. Create a personal magical tradition, and take a Mentor Spirit, and have it represent an Angel or Saint (people do "hear God," but they rarely, if ever, see him. Exceptions do apply) probably. Buy all the spells (hopefully) that you will need for much of your forseeable career.

Ideally: use karmagen and start as a level 1 initiate, with Masking. (If you GM is super friendly, you could start with a Masking focus, courtesy of your Mentor Spirit. Paid and bonded for as normal, of course.) Also Free Spirits can teach metamagics; I don't know if they can teach spells. But since this is an ideal case, we'll assume they can (or that the GM is ok with it). So your Mentor Spirit could potentially funnel new spells to you (paid for as normal).

It takes a bit of doing, but we're working within a game system after all. If it makes for a good story, hopefully the GM will be ok with it. There is a small section of Street Magic that discusses "Miracles." Incidently, since insane magicians can gain new spells, "miracle workers" should probably be able to also. (Madness: same page as Miracles.)

And remember: the only "difference" between Magic and Miracles is who is doing it.
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 16 2010, 11:18 AM
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Keep in mind that "thaumaturgy" is just greek for "working miracles".
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Sengir
post Apr 16 2010, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 16 2010, 12:25 AM) *
but Arabia reinstat.ed a Caliph (who was a Shedim after Israel offed him and a MNaster Shedim took him over).

And the name of that guy who came back from the dead is "Ibn Eisa", which is actually just a patronym and means "son of Isa", or anglicized "son of Jesus". Whoever wrote that piece sure had some humor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


@Ascalaphus: The Catholic church defines miracles as something which can not be attributed to the scientific laws of nature. Since the church has accepted magic as a force of nature (except for the guys in Westphalia, who even installed their own Pope), spellcasting or summoning can't be miracles by definition. Of course that does not stop somebody from believing otherwise, and as long as someone sincerely believes in it, pastafarianism or belief in Khorne the blood god are perfectly valid traditions.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 16 2010, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 16 2010, 02:10 PM) *
belief in Khorne the blood god


NERPS for the NERPS god!!!
Drop bears for the drop bear throne!!!
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Sengir
post Apr 16 2010, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 16 2010, 03:50 PM) *
NERPS for the NERPS god!!!
Drop bears for the drop bear throne!!!

Depends on how slicend and diced the drop bear is, and how many skulls you cracked with the NERPS package (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Actually I once built a character with those geasa (and a vibro axe)...when your GM announces the semi-regular "insanity round" while you are listening to this, the result is somewhat obvious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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hermit
post Apr 16 2010, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE
And the name of that guy who came back from the dead is "Ibn Eisa", which is actually just a patronym and means "son of Isa", or anglicized "son of Jesus". Whoever wrote that piece sure had some humor

Yeah, true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE
NERPS for the NERPS god!!!

Khorne flakes - breakfast of champions.

I have two Space Marine builds - a physad with genetech (World Eaters Berserker) and a maximum bioware'd Blood Angel named Punisher. I use tem as high-end npc occasionally. Fluffwise, what inspired me to do them was the last run in the Missions book. All you had to do was swap "Archangel Michael" for "EMPEROR", really.
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Hagga
post Apr 17 2010, 12:58 AM
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Depends on how you feel about Earthdawn/Shadowrun continuum and the Passions, I think.
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Kronk2
post Apr 17 2010, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 16 2010, 01:27 AM) *
If he wants to be a mirable worker, then he should really really invest in a diverse skill set and a lot of Edge. With Edge, he could justifiable say that someone upstairs really listens to his pleas.

+1
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Kronk2
post Apr 17 2010, 01:49 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 16 2010, 01:40 PM) *
Yeah, true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Khorne flakes - breakfast of champions.

I have two Space Marine builds - a physad with genetech (World Eaters Berserker) and a maximum bioware'd Blood Angel named Punisher. I use tem as high-end npc occasionally. Fluffwise, what inspired me to do them was the last run in the Missions book. All you had to do was swap "Archangel Michael" for "EMPEROR", really.

@ my flgs we had Khorne dogs in the fridge.
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TheOOB
post Apr 17 2010, 04:11 AM
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Street Magic covers the topic pretty well. Most Christians don't view magic as miracles simply because that other guy who is not a Christan can do the same thing just as well. Magic may be seen as a divine gift, but by 2072 most people have stopped seeing magic as miracles or divine intervention as those explanations don't explain daily occurrences.

In any case, a magician who says their powers are miracles is going to be seen as an idiot at best, a charlatan and a liar at worst, other magic types will shun him, and many people of the faith will think of them as being a false prophet...that is unless they do something magic cannot.
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