Tactics Question, ...how would you kill an APC? Options

[MikeKozar]

My rigger is about to go into battle in his biggest, baddest, loudest, not-ever-a-good-idea ride: an uparmored, upgunned, Ares Roadmaster. In this VR simulation, we're going to try and ram through the gate, autocannon the guards, and distribute rockets liberally. Normally we try to use a lighter touch, but since it's a simulator mission, we want to see if we could get away with it.

Now, beating 20 points of hardened armor is pretty straightforward - really heavy weapons would do the job, and lighter stuff would have to have a lot of net hits. I'm checking my list of hardware, and there's not much that can stop me. I'm betting that until the Heavy Response Team shows up in the chopper, nothing will even touch me.

I'm willing to bet that I'm overlooking something. You guys are a bunch of ruthless and inventive mayhem merchants - how would you stop an APC?

[DWC]

Hack on the fly for basic access, and kill you in cybercombat, or just plant databombs all over the vehicle's node.

Lasers and Gauss rifles are a no brainer when it comes to heavy armor.

Ordering a spirit to manifest inside and engulf you is always good for a laugh.

High level directional jammers will dumpshock you in a hurry unless you're physically plugged in, or have a really good ECCM program.

[D2F]

My rigger is about to go into battle in his biggest, baddest, loudest, not-ever-a-good-idea ride: an uparmored, upgunned, Ares Roadmaster. In this VR simulation, we're going to try and ram through the gate, autocannon the guards, and distribute rockets liberally. Normally we try to use a lighter touch, but since it's a simulator mission, we want to see if we could get away with it.

Now, beating 20 points of hardened armor is pretty straightforward - really heavy weapons would do the job, and lighter stuff would have to have a lot of net hits. I'm checking my list of hardware, and there's not much that can stop me. I'm betting that until the Heavy Response Team shows up in the chopper, nothing will even touch me.

I'm willing to bet that I'm overlooking something. You guys are a bunch of ruthless and inventive mayhem merchants - how would you stop an APC?

Given availability:

Manifested Spirit with the engulf power
GE rotary autocannons (preferrably the vanquisher) with AV ammo
Ares Heavy MP Laser
Flamethrower
HMG with AV ammo
AV Rockets/Missiles
Inferno Rockets/Missiles
AV Mortar
Zapper Rocket
Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser
Gauss Cannons (any and without any trouble, whatsoever; they eat APCs for breakfast and are left hungry for more)
anything more powerful than the above


If none of the above are available, you could also try:

Neurostun gas grenades
Seven-7 Gas grenades
Pepper-Punch gas grenades
CS gas grenades


And independant of the weapon of your choice, you can always eploy tank traps =)
Other than the above and hacking the vehicle, I am not aware of any other options to stop such a vehicle.

[Mongoose]

A set of these, one up by default to prevent entry, one that flips up behind you in an "airlock" system. Some of these planted in the roadway (as powerful as you like, use Arsenal demolitions rules, and count the roadbed as a reflector) between those so they can shoot up into the under-armor of what ever is stopped there. In-ground zapper system that's WAY nastier than the rocket, plus has an anti-personal effect in case people get out of the car. No wireless connection on any of this, plus manual switches in the guard bunker that cuts out matrix control and revert them to dumb hardware. Guards are in a bunker with direct site (mirrored glass) and interact with entering drivers via drone.

Not everybody is gonna invest in that type of hardware, but "in through the gate" can be made impossible for even a tank, if people have the interest in preventing that. Gates are natural choke points, and you can typically kill ANYTHING that comes through a fixed choke point, if you are willing to install the hardware.

[Sengir]

I'm betting that until the Heavy Response Team shows up in the chopper, nothing will even touch me.

Given the amount of armour on the streets, most larger installations should have one or two LAWs (750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) each, and no sensors means a long shelf life) in the weapon locker. Not enough to reliably kill a fully upgraded Roadmaster, but it will penetrate the hull and cause some shrapnell fun inside

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Gauss Cannons (any and without any trouble, whatsoever; they eat APCs for breakfast and are left hungry for more)

QFT! I'm thinking of buying one for my PC just for that one time where we are escaping a heavily defended complex being chased by a tank and take the tank down in a sigle combat turn.

[D2F]

QFT! I'm thinking of buying one for my PC just for that one time where we are escaping a heavily defended complex being chased by a tank and take the tank down in a sigle combat turn.

To be fair, I was talking about the gauss cannons, not the rifle. The rifle doesn't have the "cut armor by half before applying AP modifiers" that the cannons have.

[DWC]

Part of the Arsenal 2nd printing errata including giving the Thunderstruck the half armor part against non-smart armor. It pretty much made the assault cannon obsolete.

[Matsci]

To be fair, I was talking about the gauss cannons, not the rifle. The rifle doesn't have the "cut armor by half before applying AP modifiers" that the cannons have.

Check teh Errata.

p. 30 Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
Add the following sentence to the end of the weapon description:
“Halve all armor but smart armor against the gauss rifle (before applying the AP modifier)”.

Edit: As on how to stop the Vehicle

Barriers- Pop Up Steel enforced Concrete ones. Explosively fired up from underneath the car.

[nezumi]

+1 to what Mongoose said.

Your primary concern is two-fold. One is terrain. This includes intentional things such as jersey walls, tank barriers, ditches, Ice Sheet, etc., as well as unintentional ones such as raised highways, hills, parked vehicles, buildings, etc.

Second thing is getting from the APC to the inside of your building. As soon as your guys leave the vehicle, they should expect heavy counter fire. They also better move awfully fast, because that APC may as well have a giant, red bullseye on it because when those big guns come to bear, you will not be able to hide it.

[Dr.Rockso]

Part of the Arsenal 2nd printing errata including giving the Thunderstruck the half armor part against non-smart armor. It pretty much made the assault cannon obsolete.

I think availability would be the deciding factor there, no? I know the panther is much easier to get then the thunderstruck. AFB tho, so i'm not sure about the other ass-cannon in arsenal.

[D2F]

Part of the Arsenal 2nd printing errata including giving the Thunderstruck the half armor part against non-smart armor. It pretty much made the assault cannon obsolete.

Doh! Yeah, that would make the assault cannon obsolete.

[Matsci]

I think availability would be the deciding factor there, no? I know the panther is much easier to get then the thunderstruck. AFB tho, so i'm not sure about the other ass-cannon in arsenal.

Thunder Struck 24F 13000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Panther 20F 5500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Vigorous 18F 4000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Ammo Thunderstruck 18F 350 for 10 and 14F 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Battery
Assault Ammo 16F 450 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for 10

So Thunderstuck costs ~ 3x as much, and ammo costs ~1.5 times as much. Plus harder to get.

[DWC]

For people planning to buy one off the back of a truck, the assault cannon wins because it's easier to get and to get ammunition for. For top shelf corporate paramilitary units or high end real military units who don't deal with availability issues, the Gauss rifle is the new king of the portable anti-armor jungle. Compared with how inaccurate and expensive every anti-tank missile other than the Heimdahl is, I can't see anyone who can buy them wholesale not buying gauss rifles.

[Mongoose]

Second thing is getting from the APC to the inside of your building. As soon as your guys leave the vehicle, they should expect heavy counter fire. They also better move awfully fast, because that APC may as well have a giant, red bullseye on it because when those big guns come to bear, you will not be able to hide it.

Yeah, leaving with the goods could be a problem if you are driving away in what amounts to an illegal military vehicle. As soon as they twig to the attack, the corp is gonna alert the local government- not for help, but because its the gov's job to protect the public OUTSIDE of corp territory. You really think the gov is gonna let you drive back to the barrens or whatever? And if they do, that they aren't tracking you every inch of the way, feeding the data to the military?

[FriendoftheDork]

+1 to what Mongoose said.

Your primary concern is two-fold. One is terrain. This includes intentional things such as jersey walls, tank barriers, ditches, Ice Sheet, etc., as well as unintentional ones such as raised highways, hills, parked vehicles, buildings, etc.

Second thing is getting from the APC to the inside of your building. As soon as your guys leave the vehicle, they should expect heavy counter fire. They also better move awfully fast, because that APC may as well have a giant, red bullseye on it because when those big guns come to bear, you will not be able to hide it.

Agreed. Heavy plascrete roadblocks (tank traps) should stop an APC even heavier vehicles easily, or at least damage it so much it can't drive. Once it has stopped, the guards should take cover and call for militairy backup. An APC could initiate a response from even the metroplex guard. I don't know where you guys got the impression that armored militairy grade vehicles were that common on the streets. Lone Star and Corps, sure, but private citizens? Not so much.

[Werewindlefr]

2 panther/vigorous with AV rounds on Wired-Reflexed I characters with decent dice pools. Or 3 without the AV rounds. Called Shot for +4 DV, in 4-5 shots on average the vehicle is history. No need for the crazy stuff.

[Jaid]

the zapper spike strips seem like a better choice to me. fry the people in side, bust open the lid, and you've got yourself a slightly-used APC on corporate property.

[Ol' Scratch]

Summon a fire elemental, tell him to materialize inside and give everyone a hug as his Energy Aura goes to town boiling them as if they were in a giant pressure cooker.

[Falconer]

I'd suggest a LAW w/ a anti-vehicle warhead.. but someone at catalyst has a warped sense of humour, and you'd never hit the broadside of a roadmaster from 10' away.

[FriendoftheDork]

2 panther/vigorous with AV rounds on Wired-Reflexed I characters with decent dice pools. Or 3 without the AV rounds. Called Shot for +4 DV, in 4-5 shots on average the vehicle is history. No need for the crazy stuff.

Although not completely RAW, I always assumed the extra damage from Called Shot used the same rules as the extra damage from automatic fire. Reasoning? Targeting vital areas (upper chest, head etc.) doesn't really help in piercing armor by itself. If you translate that into meaning targeting areas of the body with lighter armor, it might make more sense, but with most personal armors it's often the case of either good armor or no armor with little in between.

In any case, since the GM determines whether an APC has any vulnerable parts (which is required to use the Called Shot rule), this tactic might not be completely effective. It could have weak spots on the roof, rear and possible sides though which the gunners with assault cannons might get a round or two through (much like WW2 Anti Tank riflemen would target weak spots in the armor of enemy tanks). Of course some or all of these weak spots might be impossible to hit from the shooters' angle, essentially giving it "cover."

[MikeKozar]

Yeah, leaving with the goods could be a problem if you are driving away in what amounts to an illegal military vehicle. As soon as they twig to the attack, the corp is gonna alert the local government- not for help, but because its the gov's job to protect the public OUTSIDE of corp territory. You really think the gov is gonna let you drive back to the barrens or whatever? And if they do, that they aren't tracking you every inch of the way, feeding the data to the military?

You have a point...but every night before he goes to bed, my rigger (and his unholy Pilot Ground Vehicle dice pool) pray that tomorrow somebody tries to get him into a car chase. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said, this vehicle is never supposed to get used outside of a warzone, but the GM is letting us run a simulation. I mean, I know I shouldn't...but could I?

Agreed. Heavy plascrete roadblocks (tank traps) should stop an APC even heavier vehicles easily, or at least damage it so much it can't drive.

The issue with roadblocks that I'm seeing is the ramming rules. If my Body 16 Roadmaster hits a gate at a speed of 55, it deals BodyX2 to the target, and must resist half that. If I add a ram plate, that raises the enemy's damage to the next level - BodyX3, while I continue to take Body. 16P vs my Roadmaster, and 48P versus the target. The hypothetical barrier rolls ArmorX2 to soak damage, so a reinforced concrete wall would soak with 24 dice (figure 8 hits on average), reducing my hit to 40P. This is 2.6 times the structure rating of the wall; figure 2.6 meters square are blasted out. Big enough to get the Roadmaster through? Maybe. Regular Plascrete is weak enough I should get a 4 meter breach - that should do it.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how ramming is broken - they might be right. Still...might be fun to try it once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[D2F]

2 panther/vigorous with AV rounds on Wired-Reflexed I characters with decent dice pools. Or 3 without the AV rounds. Called Shot for +4 DV, in 4-5 shots on average the vehicle is history. No need for the crazy stuff.

Assault cannons use special ammo. They can't use AV ammo.

[FlakJacket]

Hhmm, well the main question is who are they hitting? Is the site extraterritorial or operating under local laws? What's the site, what happens there, and what sort of attack are they likely to normally expect? How much space do they have from the edge of their land to the target do they have to play with for defence in depth? All of these things are going to affect what kinds of defensive measures they're reasonably likely to have around the place.

Since the plan is to charge their way in the first line of defence has to be making that as hard as possible, the Citymaster isn't all that special so it shouldn't be too hard. Things like chicanes on road in at the guard station so that they have to steer in a tight S-shape forcing them to slow down and be a much better target are good. Barriers and bollards like people have posted are an idea. The other thing to keep in mind is what landscaping and design can contribute to security, a prime example of this being the new design for the US Embassy in the UK. The water feature looks nice but also blocks off a good quarter to third of the building acting as a modern water filled moat, then you've got the very deep dry moat to the bottom left covering another quarter, as well as the earthen berms. Unless they bring their own bridging equipment it keeps things like truck bombs a minimum distance away and looks a hell of a lot better than massive blast barriers. Large mature trees can act as a privacy screen and also act as a major barrier.

Of course if you want to be really evil just do what I did to some PCs ages back and build a modern moat to secure the place. Have a metre deep and two metre wide concrete lined ditch with vertical sides dug around the building covered over with slabs that are hinged on the side nearest the outside perimeter and held up by locks on the side nearest the building. Cover them with grass or whatever is around to camouflage them. When someone tries to charge the building security trips the locks to unlock them so the slabs fall into the ditch at an angle providing a nice little ramp for them to drive down and then concrete wall to slam head first into. It's kind of like a modern day version of the ha-ha, here's a cross section of one to give you an idea.

Anti-tank mines are always fun. Scatter a bunch of command detonated, using physical wires rather than wireless of course, ones along the approach road and either side of it plus any likely routes someone could be expected to come charging along would be easy enough. Even if it doesn't penetrate the vehicle itself there's still a very good chance it could mangle a wheel or bugger up the mechanics of the vehicle giving you a mobility kill.

[Summerstorm]

You have a point...but every night before he goes to bed, my rigger (and his unholy Pilot Ground Vehicle dice pool) pray that tomorrow somebody tries to get him into a car chase. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said, this vehicle is never supposed to get used outside of a warzone, but the GM is letting us run a simulation. I mean, I know I shouldn't...but could I?



The issue with roadblocks that I'm seeing is the ramming rules. If my Body 16 Roadmaster hits a gate at a speed of 55, it deals BodyX2 to the target, and must resist half that. If I add a ram plate, that raises the enemy's damage to the next level - BodyX3, while I continue to take Body. 16P vs my Roadmaster, and 48P versus the target. The hypothetical barrier rolls ArmorX2 to soak damage, so a reinforced concrete wall would soak with 24 dice (figure 8 hits on average), reducing my hit to 40P. This is 2.6 times the structure rating of the wall; figure 2.6 meters square are blasted out. Big enough to get the Roadmaster through? Maybe. Regular Plascrete is weak enough I should get a 4 meter breach - that should do it.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how ramming is broken - they might be right. Still...might be fun to try it once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Na... wait. You know the Hitpoint... umm hitboxes is for an estimate of 10 cm thickness of that material. Make that thing a springed 1 meter long block and it has 10 times the HP. Which means your ramming Roadmaster flattens/crumbles 10% of it and STOPS. Sure you can try it again and again... but can your Roadmaster take 10 times that? And do you have the time to ram it into pieces?