Am I interpreting Initiation wrong? Options

[Samoth]

BY the way the books are written, you pay 10 + (Initiate grade x 3) to raise your initiate level.

For example: mage guy with 6 Magic pays 13 karma to become an Initiate level 1. For that 13 karma he gets a metamagic and his Magic MAXIMUM is raised to 7...but his magic stat remains 6. Then he'd have to shell out another 35 karma to actually level his Magic stat. Is this right? Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly from SR2, but I thought each Initiation gave you +1 current and max magic, as well as the metamagic (or maybe I did it wrong then too).

How does this apply for adepts? Mystic adepts?

This seems like an even bigger karma sink than I ever realized. Just to go from Magic 6 to 7 with one initiation, you have to pay 48 karma!!! Please tell me that can't be right...This seems to make mages and adepts prohibitively expensive to improve.

[Harbin]

Welcome to 'Fun with Mages', this is your host, 'Krazy Karmasink'.

Yeah, mages/technomancers/adepts just eat up karma for breakfast.

[Caadium]

You are correct that in previous editions your magic also went up as part of that cost. Yes, it is now much more expensive than it used to be; however I used to think that it was far too cheap considering what you got.

[Mongoose]

I agree its a lot of karma when you factor in the cost to raise the stat, but mundanes with maxed out stats would line up round the block to spend 13 karma to boost racial max in a stat just so they can spend MORE karma to raise it. Mages (and TMs) effectively get to do just that.

What do you really want magic 7 for, anyhow? Whatever it is, isn't raising skills more "cost effective"?

[jimbo]

I just keep my Magic 1 below the max, so Grade 1 I shoot for 6 Magic (still 13 + 30). At least the grade of Initiate also gets you something.

Adepts and Magicians will of course find some metamagic incompatible, but Adepts (esp runners) get good mileage out of Masking/Flexible Signature, and Centering is pretty cool.

[Samoth]

It seems like adepts get hosed pretty badly with this system since they enormously hindered in their ability to grow.

I thought i read an optional rule about taking an extra power point instead of a metamagic, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

[Space Ghost]

It's in the Street Magic errata. Strange that they added an optional rule into an errata document. Maybe they see the same problem with adepts that the rest of us do.

[Harbin]

This is a good opportunity to ask how to go about that. It seems quite overpowered to grab that powerpoint for 13 Karma. How would you go about this with background count? Would you lose all of those straight off? How would you suggest balancing the powerpoint gain instead of metamagic?

[Ol' Scratch]

Keep in mind that you also have the option to initiate with a group, and to initiate with ordeals (as well as combine the two) for a big discount on he initiation cost. I believe it's -20% each, so you can do your first grade of initiation for only 7-8 Karma depending on which way your group likes to round numbers (I go with "in favor of the player characters" unless the rules specify a direction).

As for adepts, one option that didn't make it into this edition as far as I know is the choice to take 1 Power Point in lieu of a metamagic technique. That way they don't have to raise their Magic attribute, but still gain access to new powers as they progress. It's actually a pretty nice rule since it expands the powers they have available, but doesn't increase their overall strength (at least for those that rely on the Magic attribute).

[TheOOB]

Initiation is fairly priced, it's the magic that is expensive. As mentioned above it's not hard to make your first initiation cost 7 karma, which is a steal for access to the metaplanes, and a metamagic technique. This is of course assuming you round the cost down(which considering shadowrun seems to always round in favor of the player save with augmented skill and attribute caps seems to be the way to go). Future initiations will also be cheap, assuming group initiation(which is worth it), and an ordeal, you next couple will be 9, 11, and 12 karma, well worth it for +1 init grade and a metamagic. And when initiation gets expensive, you can actually just purchase metamagic direct ally via rules in Street Magic.

Magic is what is expensive on the other hand, 35 karma for magic 7 is a lot, assuming 7 karma a run that is 5 runs of karma for that increase. Up to magic 8-9 is worth it, but eventually the cost just becomes too much for the increase. The extra dice are always useful, but at a certain point you just are not able to cast spells with such a high drain.

As for adepts, as mentioned above the rules to replace a metamagic with +1 power point are very good. There are still some good metamagic techniques, but this goes a long way in making adepts more playable as their advancement is actually quite fast. They will generally only raise magic when they need more power within their powers, or they need more wiggle room with their essence.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well for mages +1 magic improves not only the max level/physical srain point of there spells and spirits force, but adds +1 die to every sorcery and conjuring skill. That aint bad for statx5 in cost. In fact even with this mages are overpowered IMO. For Adepts yeah I think they get hosed by the standard rules and the optional rule is a good idea to use, I am not sure about mystic adepts. While the logic would be the same you really only need 5-6 magic to rock the house with spells/spirits and if the rest of your phys adept abilities were bought on the cheap it might be too good. But then again you are passing up on some awesome metamagics that I see as an almost necessity for your mage side, like mask and improved mask.

[Mongoose]

Magic is what is expensive on the other hand, 35 karma for magic 7 is a lot, assuming 7 karma a run that is 5 runs of karma for that increase.

But that's not unique to magic. What about a troll who wants to raise his body stat? That's a LOT of karma, even if he's nowhere near maxed.

[Shinobi Killfist]

But that's not unique to magic. What about a troll who wants to raise his body stat? That's a LOT of karma, even if he's nowhere near maxed.

And it still might be worth it for most stats even at the cost. Look at agility raising it from 5 to 6 costs 30 karma sure, but that is +1 die in almost every physical skill you will use. And magic is a double duty stat it improves dice in a skill and it has a function on its own.

[TheOOB]

But that's not unique to magic. What about a troll who wants to raise his body stat? That's a LOT of karma, even if he's nowhere near maxed.

Typically a troll will start with as high a body as they are ever likely to get, the BP system punishes you too much otherwise.

As a house rule, however, I do count meta bonuses after I calculate the karma cost to raise an attribute, so a troll going from 9 to 10 body would only cost 30 karma, but that is just my games.

In any case, I'm not saying mages will not raise magic, I'm saying it's just not priority. Once you get 6 or 7 magic or so, you get much more benefit by maxing out your skills and binding some foci, and possibly getting some non-magic skills/attributes. Raising your magic up higher isn't really cost efficient until you have done most all you can do with your karma.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Typically a troll will start with as high a body as they are ever likely to get, the BP system punishes you too much otherwise.

As a house rule, however, I do count meta bonuses after I calculate the karma cost to raise an attribute, so a troll going from 9 to 10 body would only cost 30 karma, but that is just my games.

In any case, I'm not saying mages will not raise magic, I'm saying it's just not priority. Once you get 6 or 7 magic or so, you get much more benefit by maxing out your skills and binding some foci, and possibly getting some non-magic skills/attributes. Raising your magic up higher isn't really cost efficient until you have done most all you can do with your karma.

Sure but it is still fairly priced or maybe even still too cheap at attributex5. You get a lot for that attribute x5. But yeah I'll initiate like 5 or 6 times before I raise my magic past 6, ill pick up a crap load of spells, bind an ally, get a few focuses before i go to far with magic. Heck until I've capped my focuses at magic x2(the suggested addictionh breaking point if you use it) I wont even consider raising my magic. And yet it is still fairly priced, given what I get for it. Prioritizing cheaper things does not make the cost too much.

[KCKitsune]

I got a question: If you start off with Magic maxed, do you have to pay for to be maxed AGAIN*? If so then that is pretty fragged up!


* == you start off with Magic 6, then initiate. Your new max is 7 do you have to pay 6 to 7 and then since 7 is your max do you have to pay the 25 BP (or how ever much it is in Karma) to max it again

[Ol' Scratch]

BPs and character creation rules aren't used during gameplay, and initiation isn't supported by the BP system. So it's kind of a moot question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But no, if initiation were allowed, your attribute maximum would have increased. You'd only have to pay the max cost for the final point, no matter what the final point was. Recalculating its cost would be the only hassle. Sort of like getting the Exceptional Attribute quality.

[KCKitsune]

BPs and character creation rules aren't used during gameplay, and initiation isn't supported by the BP system. So it's kind of a moot question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But no, if initiation were allowed, your attribute maximum would have increased. You'd only have to pay the max cost for the final point, no matter what the final point was. Recalculating its cost would be the only hassle. Sort of like getting the Exceptional Attribute quality.

I know that. That's the reason I said "25 BP (or how ever much it is in Karma)"

What I want to know is if I max it at Character creation, do I have to pay the cost to max it again? Or since I already paid the cost I don't have to pay it again.

[Ol' Scratch]

The point was that there is no tax for "max attribute" ratings during gameplay. It's purely a character creation limitation of the BP System. Neither the Karma System nor the Priority System use it, nor does Character Advancement.

[RedFish]

I know that. That's the reason I said "25 BP (or how ever much it is in Karma)"

What I want to know is if I max it at Character creation, do I have to pay the cost to max it again? Or since I already paid the cost I don't have to pay it again.

The extra cost for maxing a stat only applies during character creation, so no.

[Samoth]

How would you handle this scenario:

Mage starts with 6 Magic either through BP or Karmagen. He later gets some cyber/bio/whatever, dropping his Magic to 5. He initiates to level 1, which costs 13 Karma without a group. Now, he wants to buy a point of Magic -- would he have to pay 30 Karma (to raise it to 6) or 35 Karma (to raise it to 7, since he had previously paid for 6 Magic?)

[Ol' Scratch]

He pays the cost to increase it from its current value at the time of purchase. Temporary attribute modifiers wouldn't apply (so no trying to stand in the middle of a Force 4 background count).

[Samoth]

He pays the cost to increase it from its current value at the time of purchase. Temporary attribute modifiers wouldn't apply (so no trying to stand in the middle of a Force 4 background count).

So if he already got 1 point of augmentations, it's really in his best interest min/maxing-wise to get his essence to 1 (1 magic) before bothering to buy Magic points back?

One more question:

Adept dude starts with 6 Magic and then Initiates to level 1. According to the MitS errata, he can choose to take a power point instead of a metamagic at each initiation level. He then pays the normal 35 Karma to up his magic stat to 7. At this point, is this how it breaks down: He has Magic 7 for all magic linked abilities and tests, but he has 8 power points to purchase abilities with? What if he is a Mystic Adept -- Can he purchase the Magic Power ability with power points, or is that limited to the Magic stat?

[Ol' Scratch]

If he had the Karma to spare and didn't mind being a complete and utter magical wimp in the mean time, sure, why not? Or if he was stockpiling it, I hope he's having fun being grossly underpowered compared to his companions. Likewise, his max Magic attribute would stilll be (6 - Essence + Grade), so he better have a lot of initiation grades under his belt, too.

As for your other questions, yes, the adept would have Magic 7 and 8 Power Points. And no, the Mystic Adept could not purchase the "Magic Power" adept power because there is no "Magic Power" adept power. Mystic Adepts simply split their Magic between adept powers and magical abilities.

[Glyph]

So if he already got 1 point of augmentations, it's really in his best interest min/maxing-wise to get his essence to 1 (1 magic) before bothering to buy Magic points back?

Just remember this rule, pg. 189 of the main rulebook (not sure what page it would be on in SR4A):

A character's initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character's Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.

So lowering your Magic to 1 means you can only have an initiate grade of 1. So if you were starting from 1 Magic, you would be initiating, then raising Magic by 1, then initiating again, and so on. It might be cheaper, but so what? You will still be wimpy compared to the other characters, and spread thin compared to dedicated sammies, or mages who started out strong and spent their resources on power foci instead of 'ware.

The mathematically best option isn't always the most effective. For karmagen, for example, you can have a character with no points in Attributes and get a zillion skills at rating 1 and 2. This character would convert to a damn high number of build points, and would also have very low costs to improve any of his skills and attributes. Such a character would not be very effective, though. On the other hand, consider a combat adept who hard-maxes Magic, then buys synaptic booster: 2 , muscle toner: 4 (with the restricted gear quality), and two reflex recorders. That's horribly expensive, but for a combat hyper-specialist, it is also brutally effective.