In Neptune's Realm - Chargen and Recruitment, Cyberpirates: create characters here! Options

[Faraday]

In any ship, they're going to emphasize being clandestine. Hiding in plain sight.

Obvious weapons would be right out - Every coast guard in the hemisphere would be looking for you.

Having a cover would be required. A cover for when they break that cover might be a good idea.

This is why, as Dr. Funkenstain said, a barge would be a good idea. I have no idea how ship design goes, so I'm afraid I could do little more than SR4 statting, but I can do some google searching to provide some references.

[Dumori]

I've been looking ar dive/research vessels and they fit our need most are 15-20 max passengers and crew. with a crew of about 7-9 the are 90-130 feet.
http://www.maritimesales.com/THV10.htm
and
http://www.maritimesales.com/DIV10.htm
Stand out in a way.

Stats wise we could easily uses the alternate models rules plus a few modifications to turn the yacht form arsenal into such a vessel. Speed is an issue though one of the links dose have a lift that could be used to launch and retrieve a boat.

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_yacht is what the Wolff Classique III seams to be aiming to be.

[Minchandre]

Vis a vis ship size, I'd like to give the example of the Sa'ar 4.5 class missile boat, a 200 ft warship with a complement of 53, as well as a helicopter and numerous weapons systems and electronics. Following a cube-rule, a 120 ft boat should be able to support 12 people and their stuff pretty easily.

[Dumori]

an 87 foot boat can support 20 IRL

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd imagine it would depend entirely upon the boat and how comfortable everyone would want to be. There's no hard and fast rule for that, even in real life.

[zzyxzs]

This game would be a million times easier if Penta just said: The boat your employer provides you has the following stats, room for X crew members/passengers, and X modification slots. You have X00,000¥ to purchase modifications and additional equipment.

That said, I'll toss this out as a sample long-range utility vehicle that might work.

Fishing/Research Vessel (pre-modification):

Handling -1
Accel 10/20
Speed 45
Pilot 1
Body 20
Armor 6
Sensor 2
Standard Upgrades: Special Machinery, crane

Water storage 7000L
Fuel storage (Diesel) 90000L
Fuel consumption (expressed in km/L) 0.3 km/L
Length overall 32m
Beam 5.5m
Draft 2m
Height above waterline 10m

Interior Space:
1 bridge, 1 galley, 1 mess room, 1 cargo hold, 1 engine room, 2 offices, 1 hospital with 2 beds, 2 single cabins, 6 double cabins

[Minchandre]

zzyxzs, nice boat.

The more I think about it, though, the more I think that the big yacht would fit us all, size-wise, with room to spare.

Plus, it would give us great cover: first (obvious) cover is as some rich folks (and maybe some servants if someone looks too disreputable and doesn't feel like putting on a monkey suit). Second cover, which will probably actually hold, is organized crime of some variety.

[Penta]

I could do that, Zz, but I'd wind up pulling the stats from the books again, everybody would want to design their own ship...And we'd be back where we are now.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(For what it's worth: Hi.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )
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But since I can see Zzyxzs and others glaring at me through their computer screens and willing their arms to reach through and strangle me after reading that...I'll lay out an example.

Take the Classique III from Arsenal, since we've used that to argue over.

Strip out the Luxury Amenities, you get...Oh, 10k.

Default, I'd say it looks like such. I'm at school, away from books, so these are really guesstimates based upon some Googling and guesstimates.

Length overall of 100 feet (30.5 meters)
Beam of 6 meters (20 feet)
Draft of 2 meters (12 feet)
Height above waterline, let's say 8 meters (24 feet).

These dimensional values are likely to stay pretty constant, really it's just to show what kind of scale you intend, making sure to take into account the square-cube law (What? SR commonly ignores it in the height of buildings? Yes, I know that. But let's try to keep it in mind here.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and such things, and give us all a sense of size and volume. I might use them later to figure out where the heck to dock the thing, and whether you can go down a river, but that's minor for right now.
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These next numbers, on consumables, are more likely to change. Playability will come into account, as well as feel and general sanity.

Fuel consumption is tricky. If there were an easy way to figure out how tech had advanced to 2072 from 2010, I'm certain I have not found it. We used a useful metric of 2.6 km/L last time for the classique III, borrowing from Rigger 3 (which had 2.0 for the Classique) and advancing the tech a tad, and I figure that works for this go-round too. Generally, if you can find a similar vessel in, say, Rigger 3? Save yourself the work. Throw me the numbers and we'll work out something that feels right.
Fuel storage: Should really scale with fuel consumption, but keep in mind volume. For the Classique, a fuel tank of 500 liters seems more than adequate.

This works out, by the way, to 1300 kilometers range for a full tank. That may be a bit small - I can certainly see an argument for upping the fuel storage in the default tanks, possibly by a lot, because 1300 km range seems low.

Water storage is tricky. Karoline had a useful formula for water usage last campaign that we may as well apply here:

"Each person uses 118 L a week (Trolls use 125) and dishes/cooking uses 20 L/day."

Maybe dwarves would use less? But that sounds a bit odd, because dwarves aren't really that short by comparison, whereas trolls are huge.

Let's assume...10 humans/elves/orks/dwarves, 1180 L per week for all 10, then 140 L/week for common stuff. 1320 L/week, comes out to.

Let's say 12 weeks of water storage works for argument's sake, 15840 L of storage. We can up this, but I'm basically throwing out numbers to give us something to argue with.

So far as feel goes: When it comes to fuel, my gut instinct says "Get numbers that make it a concern, so that you can't just ignore it". Water, well. Even on a converted yacht, I want to maintain a sort of naval-ish feel. Shadowrunning is presented as kinda grimy compared to the ultra-cleanness that the trid makes it out to look like, and that's sort of the feel I want to go for so far as water usage goes. Water isn't in desperately short supply, but hey, can't waste it either.

For the record, I'm pricing diesel fuel at 5Y per liter at game start, and water at 0.2Y/liter. Yeah, water isn't free - because you'll be starting off in Miami, I checked with parents, who have a condo in Florida. Turns out that the South Florida region is basically in an unending drought so far as freshwater goes, and I don't see it getting any better in 62 years.
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Still going:

I'm going to figure that you want everybody on the crew/passengers to have small single-bunk quarters, with a small bathroom (toilet, shower, sink, that's it) attached. My instinct is a sort of like a small single dorm room.

So let's figure on "This ship can carry 20 people in posited quarters." Sounds sensible for a yacht conversion, including crew and passengers. Probably a low-ball number, but it works.

You then get modslots per Arsenal, plus 1 because we removed Luxury Appointments earlier in the example. Cost of the yacht is per Arsenal, deducted from the 500k budget, but you get 10k back from the cost when you downgrade the living spaces. (One of my non-trivial considerations here is the loan. If I make it too small, you can't get much, or it becomes too easy to pay off. If I make it too large, it rapidly reaches a point where you can't functionally pay it off.)

[zzyxzs]

For the Classique, a fuel tank of 500 liters seems more than adequate.

This works out, by the way, to 1300 kilometers range for a full tank. That may be a bit small - I can certainly see an argument for upping the fuel storage in the default tanks, possibly by a lot, because 1300 km range seems low.

Using the types of ships used on the deadliest catch as examples, they have fuel tanks that hold over 100,000 liters. That makes 500 liters seem less adequate, unless the ship plans to stay near a safe harbor for frequent refueling. EDIT: Of course, I'm also using more realistic fuel consumption figures, so you can reduce that by a factor of 10 to get 8,000 - 10,000 liters as a good target for fuel capacity.

Water storage is tricky. Karoline had a useful formula for water usage last campaign that we may as well apply here:

"Each person uses 118 L a week (Trolls use 125) and dishes/cooking uses 20 L/day."

The rule of thumb for water usage at sea is 14L/day/person total (including cleaning, cooking, and incidental functions) if you aren't rationing but are using seawater instead of fresh water where possible. I'd have a troll count as two people (can't forget that square-cube law Penta) and make the bookkeeping easy.

[Ol' Scratch]

Convert it either to an all-electric or preferably a dual engine (I can't remember the term) and add a SunCell. Fuel problems become next to moot.

[Penta]

You could do that, Doc Funk, but that would make your GM sad - one thing is that all these expenses? Oh, hell, I'll be honest. They add up. They keep money flowing, not merely in but out.

Zz: Fair points. 10k L sounds great, given R3-level fuel consumption figures. 26k KM, though, is one heck of a range.

I like what you're thinking about for water usage...Okay, that works. Rationing isn't essential here.

Hit me like that again if I get lost in the details like that, someone.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, I honestly don't know how it works out in 4th Edition as I haven't tinkered much with those rules to this extent. In previous editions, however, those types of engines had the benefit of having a better performance with the combustion engines active rather than the battery/electric ones. The latter were used as emergency backup if you did happen to run out of fuel or needed to run silent or something. If you were in a chase or pursuit, you'd want the combustion engine going.

[Minchandre]

Convert it either to an all-electric or preferably a dual engine (I can't remember the term) and add a SunCell. Fuel problems become next to moot.

If we do that, we might as well include a heavy duty desalinization system and say "Goodbye," to the potable water problem as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[zzyxzs]

A bunch of yacht designs, with stats (water capacity, fuel capacity, range, etc.), and deck by deck layouts: http://charterexploreryachts.com/exploreryachtdesign.html

Any of them could stand in for the Classique III (or at least fit as a "similar model"), but I'd go for the one with a helipad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Xahn Borealis]

Just found this on my laptop.
http://knasser.me.uk/knasser_media/content...run/tampico.pdf
Maybe adapt that?

[Penta]

Xahn: That's a cargo ship, AKA a target.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Zzyxzs: I like the site, but I can't find the one with a helipad.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Found it. Personally, 150' is stretching the length I'd be comfortable with in a base ship. 130' is probably the max.

(Why? Because a 150' ship, like a 200' ship...There are a handful of harbors all along the East Coast of the (RL) US that can dock the thing, as I understand it.)

[Faraday]

Which is something I want to emphasize. The "fits in a van" is for a shop when it's packed for transport, at least the way I read the rules. What's undetermined is how big the shop is when not transportable.

Forgot to get to this earlier, but to answer:
Arsenal, page 146
"Workshop (Standard): A vehicle workshop is a mobile version of a shop. Workshops are generally not meant to be used while the vehicle is in motion, though the gamemaster may permit some limited amount of work (perhaps treating the tools as a kit rather than a shop, and adding further limitations if the project being worked on is too large to it within the vehicle)."

Basically, you can do work in a vehicle workshop. No need to "unpack". As for being too unsteady to do careful work, I would remind you that this is a 100 foot boat. Ever been in one? Unless you're in rough sea or going top speed, they're pretty damn steady. So, maybe no implantations, but being able to do surgery on board would be nice.

[Penta]

Yeah, okay, I'll give on the shop issue. However, to prevent a horde of shops: 1 project at a time per shop, and no more than 4 shops.

And partially re the medical stuff. Surgery, sure. Implanting anything? No.

[Faraday]

Yeah, okay, I'll give on the shop issue. However, to prevent a horde of shops: 1 project at a time per shop, and no more than 4 shops.

And partially re the medical stuff. Surgery, sure. Implanting anything? No.

That should work. Enough for a med shop, a vehicle shop (mostly drones), a chem shop, and electronics shop.

Also, working on character backstory. Finishing up on gear and implants/magic.

[Minchandre]

That should work. Enough for a med shop, a vehicle shop (mostly drones), a chem shop, and electronics shop.

Also, working on character backstory. Finishing up on gear and implants/magic.

Do we want to shell out for a desktop forge?

[Faraday]

Do we want to shell out for a desktop forge?

It'd be nice, but we'll need a way to make sure the feedstock doesn't have tags all in it. If we get that, I'm all for being able to make our own weapons/vehicles/widgets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Penta]

That should work. Enough for a med shop, a vehicle shop (mostly drones), a chem shop, and electronics shop.

Also, working on character backstory. Finishing up on gear and implants/magic.

Um, which kind of vehicle? It sorts by skill, I think. And flying drones use different tools than swimming drones. And you need (I suppose) tools for repairs while underway to the ship...In as much as one can do such a thing.

[Faraday]

Um, which kind of vehicle? It sorts by skill, I think. And flying drones use different tools than swimming drones. And you need (I suppose) tools for repairs while underway to the ship...In as much as one can do such a thing.

Nautical repair shop. It should serve largely as the engineering bay. We'll have to settle for a kit for repairing/altering flyer drones unless we want to do without a chem shop. (unless we want to use the kitchen...)

[zzyxzs]

Zzyxzs: I like the site, but I can't find the one with a helipad.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Found it. Personally, 150' is stretching the length I'd be comfortable with in a base ship. 130' is probably the max.

(Why? Because a 150' ship, like a 200' ship...There are a handful of harbors all along the East Coast of the (RL) US that can dock the thing, as I understand it.)

I'm not sure how many are along the eastern US, but I know that Mexico has at least 7 private marinas that can dock a 150 yacht (Marina Coral, Marina Cabo San Lucas, Marina CostaBaja, Paradise Village Marina, Marina Puerto de la Navidad, Acapulco Yacht Club, and Marina Chahue). Add to that public marinas, commercial ports, floating slips, supply/fuel boats, and military harbors and there seem be quite a few options. If the ship has a good range, there shouldn't be much need to dock very often anyway. The rest of the time the ship can anchor inside the jetties, like the big yachts do in places like Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard. The ship's size is only an issue if you want it to be.

[Xahn Borealis]

Why do we need a chemistry shop? Could we get one of those microfacs? I'd like to bring a cybertechnology shop if that's alright? That desktop forge sounds like a great idea, though.