Clairvoyance / thermal vision clarification, Does a dwarf see in thermal through Clairvoyance? Options

[j.yonderboy]

So the line in SR4 p.206 says "Any augmented vision posessed by the subject does not function through this spell..." It's not talking about a birth sense, right? How bizarre would it be if a sense that you were potentially born with was stripped from you. I've even always imagined the two as often overlapping, simultaneous, rather than a 'switch-on' ability. Chime in! Make a Green board member feel welcome =D

[Method]

Welcome to Dumpshock, J.

I would say that the rule is pretty clear- the dwarf gets no bonus for his natural thermographic vision if he is using clairvoyance. Presumably the dwarfs meat eyes give him that ability, but the spell is not dependent on his meat eyes. I wouldn't be that odd, really. I imagine the spell would be like seeing in black and white when you're used to color.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's a psychic sense. Why would your enhanced types of vision (natural or augmented) work under such a situation?

[Xahn Borealis]

Isn't that what [Sense] Cryptaesthesia is for?

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a psychic sense. Why would your enhanced types of vision (natural or augmented) work under such a situation?

While I think you are right, just want to point out since a dwarfs thermo is phrased as natural and not augmented by the letter it may work. I have not really read this much. I'd personally give it to the dwarf just so natural got some kind of benefit even if minor, but I do think that would be a house rule of mine.

[Manunancy]

One thing to keep in mind there is that the information given comes from the spell - wether you're human, dwarf, or whatever you're using the same spell which feeds your mind only human-type vision.

You can probably get an improved version to use your natural bonuses - human would probably be screwed as they don't have their brain wired to handle the extra signal.

[jimbo]

Add on question...does a dwarf, elf, etc. see in both "regular" vision AND thermo/low light? Or does a dwarf see the world only in thermo?

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, GOD, jimbo, definitely the former. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[j.yonderboy]

Isn't that what [Sense] Cryptaesthesia is for?

I'm still not convinced thermo doesn't translate via the spell. By the letter of the rule and the spirit, it's not augmented sight. It's as natural as a bat's sonar is hearing and a brain constructed to translate the incoming info. And since it's so much brain function, not just rods and cones in the eye, I think this is a matter of perception on a fundamental level. Using Cryptaesthesia is a good stopgap, but it's designed to give the user a sense they don't possess, right? That sounds even more supportive of Clair translating natural senses. Since the difference between this and Cryptaesthesia is only -1 DV I'm going with Killfist and give the bump to Natural.
Wow, love this site. Thanks all for your input.

This post has been edited by j.yonderboy: Apr 19 2010, 08:46 PM

[Method]

Add on question...does a dwarf, elf, etc. see in both "regular" vision AND thermo/low light? Or does a dwarf see the world only in thermo?

I've always imagined the enhanced vision it to be like an "overlay" over normal vision. In other words they still see detail and color and all the other stuff, they just see radiant heat energy (thermo) as well (not like the crappy yellow-orange-red blobs you see in the movies). And of course low light is simple- they see the same level of detail and color even in the dark.

[Method]

I'm still not convinced thermo doesn't translate via the spell. By the letter of the rule and the spirit, it's not augmented sight.

It may not be spelled out in SR4, but in SR there is "normal vision" and everything else is "augmented". In previous editions, natural low-light or thermographic was actually marginally better than technologically enhanced, but in SR4 there is no distinction. All there is is normal vs. augmented.

[TomDowd]

I will leave SR4 rules interpretation up to others, but I can tell you that Paul Hume's answer - he who wrote the SR1/SR2 magic rules, the original Grimoire, etc. - would be that the thermal extension of the dwarf's vision would translate because it is his natural vision and the magic would respect that. If you replaced his eyes, he would lose it, but since magic is an extension of self, and the dwarf's self incorporates thermal vision, he would have thermal vision using clairvoyance. Paul would additionally argue that it made no sense that magical vision would effectively diminish a dwarf's sense of sight.

How can I speak for Paul in this? I can because I'm actually paraphrasing his answer to that very question from back in the day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tom Dowd

[Method]

Very interesting.

(And, man is it cool to have you around, Tom!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Mantis]

I was just going to say the same. Glad to have you here Tom.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

My answer before I read Tom's, was going to be that the spell is only capable of seeing on one wavelength. So your dwarf might very well have a clairvoyance spell designed to see thermal, instead of visible light.

[Method]

Its interesting to note the rest of that line in the spell description:

"Any augmented vision posessed by the subject does not function through this spell nor does astral perception."

Emphasis mine. That would not hold up to the "Hume Test" as it were.

[Ol' Scratch]

Has anyone actually read the spell? "The subject cannot use normal vision or astral perception while using [Clairvoyance]." Largely because it isn't their physical vision that's being extended.

[Method]

I took that to mean that you can't see what's going on remotely and directly in front of you at the same time. In other words use of the spell precludes your vision of the immediate surroundings.

[Ol' Scratch]

Hmm, I can see that after reading the section a second time. The rest of the spell continues on with the same logic, though. Your physical eyes aren't actually going anywhere, your mind's eye is. And considering that the various vision types possessed by metahumans have always been described as alterations to their physical eyes (in the size and shape of their rods and cones), it really doesn't make a lot of sense that it would apply to the spell.

[TomDowd]

That would not hold up to the "Hume Test" as it were.

No, it would not. I think its clear that SR4 groups all forms of 'augmented' vision together and makes it binary. So, as written, in SR4, the dwarf would not receive the benefits of his thermal vision when using clairvoyance.

But my Hume quote stands. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

TomD

[Method]

In deed. I'm going to apply that test next time I come up against some magic wonkiness in my game and see if that clarifies the issue.