Unbreakable Encryption, Use it today! Options

[kzt]

Of course, Shadowrun gives the impression that P=NP and someone reliably proved this, making possible black boxes capable of actual non-deterministic computation. This would be a lot of pain for the scientists of today to create a new way of making data secure. Of course, this would be boring and SR adopted the network/dungeon approach, where there are "beasts" defending the "dungeon".

What that means, essentially, is that all the things we thought were really, really hard are really trivially simple. So that means you can have 6 month weather forecasts that are as accurate as the modern 2 day forecast. And things like matching fragmentary evidence solidly to a suspect? Child's play. Predicting where a shadowrunner will strike? Got that covered too.

[kzt]

I'm very sad that no one's pointed out the primary implication of stronger encryption to the average 'runner: a proliferation of lead-pipe decryption methods.

It's technically called Rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Park the van across the street or down the block. Van -> nearby node -> target.

I see it a more, Van > Nearby Node > Target Public Access Node > Access to the Non-Public Node > Search around in various Nodes > until you find the Paydata Node...

Minimum of 6 Nodes, and possibly even more...
Anything else is just a simplified Matrix Hack (1,2,3)... Nothing wrong with that, but I just prefer my matrix nodes to be a little more challenging, and possibly mimic a network that is not open to just anyone... Sometimes you will only need a Public Node for what you intend, but you cannot always count on that...

And on the other topic, If yuo have implanted cyberware that has signal rating 1 enabled, you deserve to be hacked... And I was under the impression that it was Signal 0 not Signal 1 anyways... even at Signal 1 (3 Meters) you deserve to be hacked... Turn that stuff off/Disable it entirely... it is not needed.

Keep the Faith

[Draco18s]

It's technically called Rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

Also Black Bag Cryptanalysis

I see it a more, Van > Nearby Node > Target Public Access Node > Access to the Non-Public Node > Search around in various Nodes > until you find the Paydata Node...

Minimum of 6 Nodes, and possibly even more...
Anything else is just a simplified Matrix Hack (1,2,3)... Nothing wrong with that, but I just prefer my matrix nodes to be a little more challenging, and possibly mimic a network that is not open to just anyone... Sometimes you will only need a Public Node for what you intend, but you cannot always count on that...

Ah, but that's personal preference. There's nothing in the rules that says it has to be that way.

(Edit note: apparently in quick-edit, if there's a BBCode tag error, it turns all your ' into \' )

[kzt]

If you presume the existance of quantum computers they may be able to crack all sorts of stuff simply be requiring the system to collapse into something that matches a known language. I'm not sure how in the world to actually do that, but it would seem to be within the realm of theoretical possibility... At the least I've seen people writing about quantum computers being able to bust the classic prime # problem that way.

No, the output of random keys will be random text. Some of it will make sense due to chance. It's the Infinite monkey theorem. Whether "Romeo and Juliet" was what was put in by the original encoder there is going to be at least one key that will have it as the output.

The issue with OTPs is the practical generation and operational usage, not the theory. The KGB used OTP to communicate with their US agents, and due to operational mistakes, many messages were successfully attacked as part of the Venona project.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also Black Bag Cryptanalysis

Ah, but that's personal preference. There's nothing in the rules that says it has to be that way.

I will grant you that it is personal preference, but it Should be that way in my opinion. Most RL systems are designed that way, and I do not see that changing in the game, it is just good practice... Shadowrun had to make some allowances to make the Hacker a viable option (Thus the Ecnryption thing every body hates), but that does not mean that the system architecture should be dumbed down right along with it...

Keep the Faith

[Eratosthenes]

And hidden mode doesn't have any effect on signal range.

You're right. Hidden mode does not affect signal range. But it does prevent you from accessing said node from the matrix at large.

You have to be in mutual signal range to communicate with a device. Otherwise, one of the devices can send signals, but you won't get any feedback/confirmation. So a Signal 6 commlink and a Signal 0 cyberarm must be within the cyberarm's Signal 0 range.

Signal rating 1 gives 40 meters. There's a lot of places you can be that's 40 meters away and avoid getting shot/seen/stabbed. There's also a lot of stuff between me and the target where each object is less than 40 meters away from the next that has a signal of 1.

Looking it up just now, most cyberware (and things like smartlinks) have a signal of 0, which is a range of about 1 meter.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're right. Hidden mode does not affect signal range. But it does prevent you from accessing said node from the matrix at large.

You have to be in mutual signal range to communicate with a device. Otherwise, one of the devices can send signals, but you won't get any feedback/confirmation. So a Signal 6 commlink and a Signal 0 cyberarm must be within the cyberarm's Signal 0 range.

Looking it up just now, most cyberware (and things like smartlinks) have a signal of 0, which is a range of about 1 meter.

Not sure where you looked but my copy of the book lists Signal 0 as 3 meters... Page 222 of the SR4A book...

Keep the Faith

[Demonseed Elite]

It's possible there's an error somewhere about cyberware having a Signal Rating of 1. If I recall correctly, in the first printing of SR4, it said cyberware was Signal 0 in one place and Signal 1 in the other.

This was because during early playtesting, there was no Signal 0. I argued strongly for it because I didn't feel intra-PAN devices should be broadcasting for 40 meters (or whatever Signal 1 is, I forget).

[Draco18s]

You're right. Hidden mode does not affect signal range. But it does prevent you from accessing said node from the matrix at large.

Not really. You just need to make a scan test* to see that it's there, and if you can see it in meatspace you get a bonus to the check. Once you can see the node you can hack it.

*I forget what it is called

[kjones]

I recognize that Shadowrun is just a game, and that realism and playability are often mutually exclusive. This happens to bug me because I know a bit about cryptography - if I knew about guns, I'm sure that the gun rules would bother me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's possible there's an error somewhere about cyberware having a Signal Rating of 1. If I recall correctly, in the first printing of SR4, it said cyberware was Signal 0 in one place and Signal 1 in the other.

This was because during early playtesting, there was no Signal 0. I argued strongly for it because I didn't feel intra-PAN devices should be broadcasting for 40 meters (or whatever Signal 1 is, I forget).

No Problems... Thanks for the Insight...
I agree, Intra-PAN devices should not broadcast at 40 Meters... ridiculous indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I recognize that Shadowrun is just a game, and that realism and playability are often mutually exclusive. This happens to bug me because I know a bit about cryptography - if I knew about guns, I'm sure that the gun rules would bother me.

I have to agree with you kjones...

I know a fair bit about weapons, and the rules do bug me a bit... but you are right... it is a game, and sometimes reality needs to take a hit to make the game playable...

Keep the Faith

[D2F]

if I knew about guns, I'm sure that the gun rules would bother me.

Yes, they would =) As would the damage rules in general.
The point is, though, that the rules aren't meant to be a realistic representation, but an abstract one. An abstract one meant for cinematic entertainment, no less. A purely realistic SR would not be fun for a large number of current SR players.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, they would =) As would the damage rules in general.
The point is, though, that the rules aren't meant to be a realistic representation, but an abstract one. An abstract one meant for cinematic entertainment, no less. A purely realistic SR would not be fun for a large number of current SR players.

Ain't that the truth...

Keep the Faith

[kzt]

The critical fail in a lot of the rules isn't that they are not realistic, it's that the people writing them don't know what reality is. For example, if you don't understand that the reason why people can transmit money across the internet is because of effectively unbreakable encryption and instead think that the only use for encryption is securing "secret files" you'd write something like SR4.

[D2F]

The critical fail in a lot of the rules isn't that they are not realistic, it's that the people writing them don't know what reality is. For example, if you don't understand that the reason why people can transmit money across the internet is because of effectively unbreakable encryption and instead think that the only use for encryption is securing "secret files" you'd write something like SR4.

While that is certainly true (especially when it comes to things like Cyberware and Bioware) it's not exactly the point, though. Just like good action movies, the dramatization is more important than the realism. All you need is to achieve a suspension of disbelief. Some shows/movies achieved that even despite their blatant ignorance of even the most basic scientific facts (Star Trek), other by ignoring science alltogether and simply presenting a believeable reality (star wars) and some even combine a good dose of realism with pure cinematc drama (Bourne Identity). The point of any cinematic entertainment is not realism, but personal drama and contest. The struggle of the individual through all the hazards and trials on the way.
Have a look at "hacking" in movies. Not the SR kind of hacking, but ANY hacking. I don't know of even a single Movie that depicted hackers in something even remotely realistic. Why? Because watching a guy probe a system for weeks is boring beyond belief. Same goes for weapon knockdown. You ever seen how far a real bullet would propel a hit target through the air? Compare that to cinematic action scenes.
And it's not just that, either. The target audience, primed through decades of action movies have a certain expectation to what they consider "realistic", even if some of those expectations are so far off the mark to be laughable. But they want to be their own action movie superstar, pulling off all the stunts they have seen their favorite action hero perform. Any RPG rules need to allow that, or they would be unsatisfying for a lot of potential customers. And unsatisfied customers don't buy products.
The RPG industry is an entertainment industry and as such needs to entertain. If they fail to entertain, they fail at their purpose. Realism is the realm of simulators and while the simulator industry is a giant in itself, it is not related to the RPG industry, nor their customers.

That all said, there is a small (and I need to stress "small" in this context) part of the SR community that love realism more than cinematic action. I count myself among them. We adjust rules that need adjusting. We play with character and adventure concepts that fit our view of what we consider "realistic" and we invest a lot of time in researching how to be a "shadowrunner", by looking at real special ops, real spies and real weaponry to see how they act and behave in such a situation. We also look at realistic payouts, but that's a different story alltogether.
We cannot criticize the rules for their lack of realism, though. The game is not meant to be realistic. A lot of people would not enjoy it, if it were realistic. And most people would bore themselves to death having realistic hacking rules. A game that is not fun is not entertainment. A game that defies basic logic makes supension of disbelief difficult, though, so a proper balance needs to be achieved.

[Draco18s]

it's that the people writing them don't know what reality is. For example, if you don't understand that the reason why people can transmit money across the internet is because of effectively unbreakable encryption and instead think that the only use for encryption is securing "secret files" you'd write something like SR4.

Oh yeah. You can't "print" money in ShadowRun because of the super-awesome encryption, yet the device rating of a credstick is very low. Not to mention spoofing the stick into thinking is has money. And...and...and...

Yeah. You make a system where "everything is hackable" except the things that should never be hackable (money, banks, SINs) and then provide 0 rules to allow anybody else to secure anything to that level.

And then you get people like my GM who found the Four Programs to Comlink Security:

Analyze, Black Hammer, Armor, Agent. You get an agent, give it armor, analyze, and black hammer. If it sees something (which it will, with its high dice pool) it smacks it with black hammer, forcing the hacker into a cybercomat they can't win.

[Dixie Flatline]

I don't have a problem sacrificing realism for game play and balance. In fact, just the opposite.

However, I *do* have a problem sacrificing common sense for gameplay "flavor". RAW, matrix rules mean that the entire economy of Shadowrun would collapse under mega-inflation within months, since essentially *everything* is hackable within a few moments. This requires no computer knowledge to realize the conclusion.

If you want to actually include nebbish "real world" complaints, the idea of a "flat" Matrix topology makes me want to scream in agony. Routing requires routing tables, pure and simple. In order to route data from point A to point B, you have to know where to send the data. Which means you need "next hop" information. In a tiered network, this is trivial. You let core routers do all the real heavy routing and everything else has a handful of "next hop" entries for major categories of traffic.

The more flat your topology gets, the more entries each router needs to have. There's a command in Cisco routers that turns your router into a supernode, which means, essentially, it downloads a major portion of the topology of the internet. Unless you have a core router capable of 100,000 routing entries, your router is going to crash horribly. And that's for a tiered structure. With the flat wireless matrix topology, a supernode probably would have hundreds of millions, if not billions, of routing tables. Since the Matrix is a wireless full mesh topography, that means each node, from the vending machine to the supercomputer running Seattle's matrix, needs to have an immensely large routing table, since any node could transmit and relay any amount of data, at any time, to anywhere on the matrix.

That has to be one motherf*cking HELL of a routing protocol to process something even approaching full VR to wherever it needs to go with minimal latency.

I know the argument... "but hardware has advanced in SR to the point where that's possible". Okay, sure, but the computation power of something like that has to be *non* trivial, and switching to a tiered system where every comlink didn't have to sort through a billion routing entries to make an efficient connection for each packet of data would open up that non-trivial computational power so that you could use it for something else.

I could design, in probably 3-5 pages, a matrix topology that relies heavily on wireless, that makes sense from a computer user's point of view. A lot of things would be different about the matrix, but you wouldn't have people asking "sh*t, why don't I just forge craploads of credsticks?"

[Draco18s]

I could design, in probably 3-5 pages, a matrix topology that relies heavily on wireless, that makes sense from a computer user's point of view. A lot of things would be different about the matrix, but you wouldn't have people asking "sh*t, why don't I just forge craploads of credsticks?"

Do it. I might actually start liking the Matrix again.

[D2F]

I could design, in probably 3-5 pages, a matrix topology that relies heavily on wireless, that makes sense from a computer user's point of view. A lot of things would be different about the matrix, but you wouldn't have people asking "sh*t, why don't I just forge craploads of credsticks?"

Please do it, then. And post it, so I can use it, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nylanfs]

I would LOVE to see that as well.

[Minchandre]

I could design, in probably 3-5 pages, a matrix topology that relies heavily on wireless, that makes sense from a computer user's point of view. A lot of things would be different about the matrix, but you wouldn't have people asking "sh*t, why don't I just forge craploads of credsticks?"

I'm a computer (okay, electrical) engineer, specializing in signal processing and communications; I might be able to lend a hand if you want.

[Synner667]

However, I *do* have a problem sacrificing common sense for gameplay "flavour".

That's it, exactly.

It's not about computer networks being realistic, as in they would work in the realworld...
...It's the handwavium nature of "nah, it doesn't have to be sensible, vaguely consistent or blatantly non-stupid. just do it"

[D2F]

It's not about computer networks being realistic, as in they would work in the realworld...
...It's the handwavium nature of "nah, it doesn't have to be sensible, vaguely consistent or blatantly non-stupid. just do it"

I don't have a problem sacrificing realism for game play and balance. In fact, just the opposite.

However, I *do* have a problem sacrificing common sense for gameplay "flavor".

Yet, none of you have a problem with healing in SR?