Unbreakable Encryption, Use it today! Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And then you get people like my GM who found the Four Programs to Comlink Security:

Analyze, Black Hammer, Armor, Agent. You get an agent, give it armor, analyze, and black hammer. If it sees something (which it will, with its high dice pool) it smacks it with black hammer, forcing the hacker into a cybercomat they can't win.

That works against anything that is not a Agent... or a technomancer...

And since it is a contested roll (Matrix Perception vs the Hackers Stealth + Hacking roll) that agent of yours (his) may NOT notice the Hacker...

Just sayin...

Keep the Faith

[Ascalaphus]

I haven't seen anyone mentioning the possibilities of the near-infinite storage capacity in SR4 combined with one-time pads.. you could plausibly have enough one-time pads on any one device to never run out. At least not before the device is scrapped due to the same kind of planned obsolescence that gave us program degradation.

[TomDowd]

There is no question that the Matrix rules in SR are completely "Gibsonian" in nature and utterly bogus. This was a deliberate decision on the part of the original designers. We started out with a much more realistic 'simulation' of late 1980's network topology and security, filtered through an admittedly shallow lens of what seventy years of technology change would bring, and ultimately it wasn't any fun to play. (And we knew of what we modeled since one of the early authors worked for a megacorp dealing with just those issues.)

Whomever upthread said that the SR Matrix rules were written to play out like an action movie is spot on. During my tenure (I cannot speak to what occurred afterward) the Matrix rules were probably our least successful rules set. There were a variety of reasons for this, but the primary reason was our inability to translate a primarily visual/sensorial experience into dice, tables, and goofy rules.

If you think that your SR game, and more importantly your players, would benefit from a "more realistic, less hand-wavey" system, go for it!

Tom Dowd

[Mongoose]

I don't see that you need to keep a list of the routing to everything on the matrix. You just keep a list of the things you are connected to, and they tell you what they are connected to, etc, out to some arbitrary tree depth. If what you are looking for isn't in that tree, you send a request to the device corresponding to every "leaf" in your tree, and they check their trees... etc. I doubt many devices would have more than 15 degrees of separation.

[Draco18s]

Yet, none of you have a problem with healing in SR?

Healing in SR is absurdly quick, yes. But there's a fine line between "realistic" and "practical in game terms."

I have played a game (system) that did not have magic, and your "damage track" (in SR terms) was infinitely long. You were declared dead when your penalty was so great that you couldn't succeed at anything (or if you failed the "devastating trauma" from a high-damage attack and outright died/passed out).

Long story short, my character got into a cage-fight against his boss (over three times the strength, with twice the size and toughness*) at a bar and promptly lost (almost fist to the face one-hit KO; I threw in the towel after 2 combat rounds**) I was surprisingly still on my feet after taking both punches and landing nothing. Spent over 2 months in the hospital recovering.

That became, effectively, two full months of downtime for the whole party--not because I was important, but because no one wanted to play 2 months worth of game-time with me just twiddling my thumbs.^ Thus healing--for a game perspective--has to be fairly rapid: enter medkits and First Aid healing up debilitating wounds in minutes or less.

*What would you expect to happen if a polar bear got into a fight with a large monitor lizard?
**No "initiative pass" system either, just: him, me, him, quit.
^Given that I was the only person to make every game session....I think that would have dropped "party attendance" down to two.

[D2F]

Healing in SR is absurdly quick, yes. But there's a fine line between "realistic" and "practical in game terms."

Yet, you don't apply the same lenience towards hacking and matrix mechanics? Isn't that a double standard?

[kjones]

I haven't seen anyone mentioning the possibilities of the near-infinite storage capacity in SR4 combined with one-time pads.. you could plausibly have enough one-time pads on any one device to never run out. At least not before the device is scrapped due to the same kind of planned obsolescence that gave us program degradation.

Actually, I did mention this, in my first post. This realization was what prompted me to start this thread in the first place.

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem with the theory is that this type of 'decrpytion' simply changes from brute-force computing to brute-force fist-to-facing. It's still not unbreakable because it relies on hardware and data, and the transmission of both, to all parties involved. Intercept that, and you've 'broken' the encryption.

[Heath Robinson]

The problem with the theory is that this type of 'decrpytion' simply changes from brute-force computing to brute-force fist-to-facing. It's still not unbreakable because it relies on hardware and data, and the transmission of both, to all parties involved. Intercept that, and you've 'broken' the encryption.

Yeah, but everyone has the hardware (it's called a Commlink) and the data can be generated by holding your Commlink out the window to listen to audible and wireless noise for several hours. Transmitting the data is as simple as meeting in the pub since everyone is part of this great big wireless network thing. I think the books might have mentioned it once or twice.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, but everyone has the hardware (it's called a Commlink) and the data can be generated by holding your Commlink out the window to listen to audible and wireless noise for several hours. Transmitting the data is as simple as meeting in the pub since everyone is part of this great big wireless network thing. I think the books might have mentioned it once or twice.

Right. And all you have to do is mug the guy when he leaves the pub and bam, encryption broken.

[kjones]

While I may have named the thread "Unbreakable Encryption" to get you all to read it, I should clarify that I never actually said this encryption was unbreakable. Rather, I said that it is unbreakable simply by intercepting the transmitted signals, which is both true and a huge improvement over stuff encrypted with Encrypt, which can usually be broken in a matter of seconds.

[Heath Robinson]

Right. And all you have to do is mug the guy when he leaves the pub and bam, encryption broken.

Assuming you can tell OTP key from ciphertext, sure. And know the people are exchanging an OTP key.

[Ol' Scratch]

Chances are that you'll have researched that if the code is important enough to be worth the trouble of trying to break. Else, why even bother with it to begin with? Why even have the coded message exist, and why waste the time describing (to yourself or anyone else) how it works?

[Bira]

Also, please bear in mind that the rules, unrealistic as they may be, still assume the people reading them have a modicum of common sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . You shouldn't take them too literally. Storage space in SR4 isn't literally infinite, just large enough not to matter for most applications. While I'm glad no one has to keep track of megapulses anymore, the GM still gets to say you ran out of space if you try to do absurd stuff like download the entire contents of a corporate mainframe into your portable commlink, or generating and storing enough one-time-pads to cover everything you'll ever send or receive for the rest of your life.

[Kagetenshi]

the GM still gets to say you ran out of space if you try to do absurd stuff like download the entire contents of a corporate mainframe into your portable commlink, or generating and storing enough one-time-pads to cover everything you'll ever send or receive for the rest of your life.

No, that is precisely what the GM does not get to say—at least not without being a dick. Hidden limitations only discoverable after it's too late to plan for them need very good reasons to exist, and this just doesn't have one.

EDIT: correction, that's the mainframe issue. The OTP issue presumably doesn't occur in a difficult-to-replicate circumstance, so having not properly planned for the hidden limitation isn't as disastrous, and that limit might be ok.

~J

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's exactly what the GM does, because it's not hidden. The players know from the start that data is big enough to *mostly* not worry about, but also that it's not literally infinite. It's not like they'd invest in something like that first and only then be told they couldn't; there's no 'after it's too late'.

[kjones]

Storage is subjective. Let's try to find some common ground by answering some questions:

-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store an entire BTL?
-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store 24 hours worth of simsense?
-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store a week's worth of simsense?

Personally, my answers to the above would be "yes", "yes", and "no".

[Starmage21]

Storage is subjective. Let's try to find some common ground by answering some questions:

-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store an entire BTL?
-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store 24 hours worth of simsense?
-Does an average commlink have enough storage space to store a week's worth of simsense?

Personally, my answers to the above would be "yes", "yes", and "no".

The answer SHOULD be yes, yes, and yes. Remember, we're dealing with computers that put modern day supercomputers to shame (in much the same way that modern day computers put 20 year old super computers to shame) except its by several orders of magnitude.

I could store a weeks worth of video on my 1.5 TB HDD very easily, maybe a whole month's depending on resolution and compression.

[kzt]

The problem with the theory is that this type of 'decrpytion' simply changes from brute-force computing to brute-force fist-to-facing. It's still not unbreakable because it relies on hardware and data, and the transmission of both, to all parties involved. Intercept that, and you've 'broken' the encryption.

Yes, but it's an interesting and fun adventure, not one guy rolling dice in the corner for 30 minutes with the GM.

The other element is that encryption in worthless when you own the system. Nobody is going to carry around a little book full of unique 64 character sequences they have carefully to enter every time they want to look at the report they wrote last Monday; its all going to be done by the OS in in the background. Once you are recognized as the OS (or the user) by the system decryption just happens automatically in the background. We have this fight every 6 months with clueless security guys who wan to spend a small fortune and months of man-hours and will, in the end, provide no value to us unless someone breaks in and physically steals a server.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yes, but it's an interesting and fun adventure, not one guy rolling dice in the corner for 30 minutes with the GM.

No arguments from me.

[Draco18s]

Yet, you don't apply the same lenience towards hacking and matrix mechanics? Isn't that a double standard?

I'm not holding a double standard. The matrix rules, as written, are both a) complex to the point of irritation, frustration, and endless forum threads (such as this one) and illogical from a common sense point of view (everything is hackable to the point of encryption being trivially beaten in seconds) while at the same time offering "it can't be hacked, not in a million years, forever, lalalalala I can't hear you" encryption. There's no middle ground. AND everything is wireless (except for all that stuff that you know, might have a security issue with being wireless (except for all of the gear that might have an issue being wireless, but the players own it)) which makes it trivial to hack (see previous point).

Healing on the other hand was just simplified to make it so you don't have to spend 6 to 9 months (and $8000) recovering from a job that went south (and paid out $8000).

Matrix rules that are simple, easy to use, and internally consistent are all I ask for. If its fun, then so much the better (the current rules are none of those).

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm not holding a double standard. The matrix rules, as written, are both a) complex to the point of irritation, frustration, and endless forum threads (such as this one) and illogical from a common sense point of view (everything is hackable to the point of encryption being trivially beaten in seconds) while at the same time offering "it can't be hacked, not in a million years, forever, lalalalala I can't hear you" encryption. There's no middle ground. AND everything is wireless (except for all that stuff that you know, might have a security issue with being wireless (except for all of the gear that might have an issue being wireless, but the players own it)) which makes it trivial to hack (see previous point).

Healing on the other hand was just simplified to make it so you don't have to spend 6 to 9 months (and $8000) recovering from a job that went south (and paid out $8000).

Matrix rules that are simple, easy to use, and internally consistent are all I ask for. If its fun, then so much the better (the current rules are none of those).

This.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not holding a double standard. The matrix rules, as written, are both a) complex to the point of irritation, frustration, and endless forum threads (such as this one) and illogical from a common sense point of view (everything is hackable to the point of encryption being trivially beaten in seconds) while at the same time offering "it can't be hacked, not in a million years, forever, lalalalala I can't hear you" encryption. There's no middle ground. AND everything is wireless (except for all that stuff that you know, might have a security issue with being wireless (except for all of the gear that might have an issue being wireless, but the players own it)) which makes it trivial to hack (see previous point).

Healing on the other hand was just simplified to make it so you don't have to spend 6 to 9 months (and $8000) recovering from a job that went south (and paid out $8000).

Matrix rules that are simple, easy to use, and internally consistent are all I ask for. If its fun, then so much the better (the current rules are none of those).

Odd that you say that, and I am not trying to be a prick about it, but I have yet to see anything truly difficult about the 4th Edition Matrix Rules... they are, in my opinion, simple, easy to use, and relatively consistent... to a point... the biggest inconsistencies are generally those that individuals manufacture to be inconsistent... the Rules were never meant to be a picture of real life, they are meant to be a method of providing a system to quickly model an electronic intrusion (as someone previously said in this thread... too lazy to look it up though)... In my opinion (I know that I am in the minority here), the rules are fun, and have succeeded in that regard, at the least.

The truly odd thing to me is that the people who truly do not like the rules provided (or their optional additions), try to intentionally make them more difficult to understand than they really are, and I am not sure exactly why that is. I know that the rules do not mimic real life in any way shape or form (nor would I want them to do so... talk about boring with a Capital B), with the possible exception of several buzz words that may share the same meanings. But that is really okay, there is no real need to over complicate the rules... And, for those who like a more complicated, or more realistic version of the Matrix, there are plenty of Optional Rules to provide such a version.

When you start bringing in real life/real world terminologies and expectations to the Matrix, then yes, the rules will bother you (As the Encryption Topics so generally provide)... I would say just relax about why it ISN'T what you want it to be, and play with what it is intended to be...

Anyways... enough of my ranting... I am pretty sure you are tired of my POV on this matter, so apologies if I have offended anyone, that is not my intent...

Keep the Faith

[Draco18s]

Anyways... enough of my ranting... I am pretty sure you are tired of my POV on this matter, so apologies if I have offended anyone, that is not my intent...

Not offended, I simply don't agree. I've attempted numerous times to use the matrix rules and have come to the conclusion that they are poorly written, not well explained, have few examples.* The only part about them that I like is ... actually, I don't think I like any of it. I would say I liked the fact that they exist and offer an option, but without understanding them fully they are unwieldy, confusing, and downright unhelpful.

The last thing I did with them personally was take over from the GM while a technomancer hacked a system. My job was to roll the system's analyze and throw a trace at the player.

After about four rounds of tracing him and letting him do his thing I stumbled upon something I'd missed which ret-conned the entire thing back to "ok, you *DO* notice the trace..." At which point I threw the book aside, looked at the player and said, "you notice the trace, you trivially avoid it" (as I knew the odds of success on that, based on his dice pool and mine) "and get the pay data without getting caught."

The player decided next session that the technomancer wasn't any an interesting/viable/fun character to play.

*Ok, so points A, B, and C are variations on the same. But they are different. Poorly written means you need better explanation, which can be done with examples, but doesn't need to be.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not offended, I simply don't agree. I've attempted numerous times to use the matrix rules and have come to the conclusion that they are poorly written, not well explained, have few examples.* The only part about them that I like is ... actually, I don't think I like any of it. I would say I liked the fact that they exist and offer an option, but without understanding them fully they are unwieldy, confusing, and downright unhelpful.

The last thing I did with them personally was take over from the GM while a technomancer hacked a system. My job was to roll the system's analyze and throw a trace at the player.

After about four rounds of tracing him and letting him do his thing I stumbled upon something I'd missed which ret-conned the entire thing back to "ok, you *DO* notice the trace..." At which point I threw the book aside, looked at the player and said, "you notice the trace, you trivially avoid it" (as I knew the odds of success on that, based on his dice pool and mine) "and get the pay data without getting caught."

The player decided next session that the technomancer wasn't any an interesting/viable/fun character to play.

*Ok, so points A, B, and C are variations on the same. But they are different. Poorly written means you need better explanation, which can be done with examples, but doesn't need to be.

Hey, No worries Draco18s...

I agree that the rules can be confusing... no Doubt about it...
Better Descriptions would definitely help, and more Examples, or more detailed examples, would help even more... I think that the redesigend section in SR4A may have helped to clear up a few things, but I could be wrong on that count...

Keep the Faith