Unbreakable Encryption, Use it today! Options

[Heath Robinson]

Draco,
If you would like there to exist an alternative to the current matrix system, why not start to make one? It may be a significant amount of work, and contentious to a number of other posters, but doing it publically on these forums would probably generate suggestions made in good faith. I know that I would enjoy assisting anyone embarking on such an endeavour.

[Draco18s]

Draco,
If you would like there to exist an alternative to the current matrix system, why not start to make one? It may be a significant amount of work, and contentious to a number of other posters, but doing it publically on these forums would probably generate suggestions made in good faith. I know that I would enjoy assisting anyone embarking on such an endeavour.

Someone's suggested one, I'd like to see theirs.

As for fixing it myself, I've thought on that and haven't been able to come up with a solution that adheres to existing game rules (that is, uses the same success/fail mechanic).

[KarmaInferno]

While the number-field sieve is the best method currently known, there exists an intriguing possibility for a far more elegant approach. Here we would find a composition of extensions, each Abelian over the rationals, and hence contained in a single cyclotomic field. Using the Artin map, we might induce homomorphisms from the principal orders in each of these fields that z by f z. These maps could then be used to combine splitting information from all the fields. Interspersed with this in turn would require the standard Kummer extensions that non-torsion form of the Jacobians of the Fermat curves gives rise to. It would be a breakthrough of Gaussian proportions and allow us to acquire the solution in a dramatically more efficient manner. Now, I should emphasize that such an approach is purely theoretical. So far, no one has been able to accomplish such constructions. Yet.




-karma

[KarmaInferno]

On a more serious note, wouldn't rotating personal ciphers be more or less unbreakable as well?

I mean, if I decide the word "Donut" means "Target what I'm aiming at and open fire" to my drone, and the word changes every time the command is given, there's no crypto-breaking system in the universe that could figure that out just from the transmission. They'd need access to either me or my drone.



-karma

[Ascalaphus]

Draco,
If you would like there to exist an alternative to the current matrix system, why not start to make one? It may be a significant amount of work, and contentious to a number of other posters, but doing it publically on these forums would probably generate suggestions made in good faith. I know that I would enjoy assisting anyone embarking on such an endeavour.

Frank Trollman took that suggestion to heart. Unfortunately, he got into a fight, and his alternative proposal was never really discussed here. A shame, because it has a lot of ideas.

LINK

[Heath Robinson]

Frank Trollman took that suggestion to heart. Unfortunately, he got into a fight, and his alternative proposal was never really discussed here. A shame, because it has a lot of ideas.

LINK

I've made suggestions on Frank's aWoD project on TGD. I know about The Ends (it's a sticky after all). I even have a PDF copy of it.

Some people find brain hacking objectionable, and I would enjoy seeing Dumpshock create a matrix alternative. We have a lot of decent minds posting here, surely they could do something cool.

[kjones]

While the number-field sieve is the best method currently known, there exists an intriguing possibility for a far more elegant approach. Here we would find a composition of extensions, each Abelian over the rationals, and hence contained in a single cyclotomic field. Using the Artin map, we might induce homomorphisms from the principal orders in each of these fields that z by f z. These maps could then be used to combine splitting information from all the fields. Interspersed with this in turn would require the standard Kummer extensions that non-torsion form of the Jacobians of the Fermat curves gives rise to. It would be a breakthrough of Gaussian proportions and allow us to acquire the solution in a dramatically more efficient manner. Now, I should emphasize that such an approach is purely theoretical. So far, no one has been able to accomplish such constructions. Yet.




-karma

What's purple and commutes?

An abelian grape!

[Demonseed Elite]

Frank Trollman took that suggestion to heart. Unfortunately, he got into a fight, and his alternative proposal was never really discussed here. A shame, because it has a lot of ideas.

LINK

Frank's Matrix material is well thought-out. I wish he'd been involved in the SR4 Matrix mechanics conversations. It is different than the standard rules, but he takes the time to consider all of the considerations that the SR writers had to think about when developing the Matrix rules for Fourth Edition. And in many cases, I feel Frank thought about them more clearly.

Too often, I see criticisms of the Matrix rules without proposed solutions, because the solutions are hard. And many of the things the critics say they would want effectively destroy the Matrix as a playable part of Shadowrun, which obviously no Shadowrun writer is ever going to do (or would be allowed to do).

[Ol' Scratch]

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that it's far easier for one person to come up with a complete set of rules that are internally consistent than it is for a group of people, each writing different sections, to do the same. So while things may seem better thought out and organized when done by a single person, that doesn't mean the same amount of effort and energy didn't go into the other. It also doesn't mean that those rules are going to be balanced or immune to abuse anymore than any other set of rules, such as in the case of the discussed house rules. There's a lot of goofiness in there, and stuff I'd never even consider introducing into my games due to the absurdity thereof.

[Demonseed Elite]

Don't quote me on this, because I'm not 100% sure, but I think most of the Fourth Edition Matrix rules were written by one author. For the most part, the SR4 writing pool was very small because the project was kept secret even from some freelancers (like myself) for quite a long time. The rest of the freelancers were brought in for playtesting, but the number of writers involved in creating the rules was fairly small.

[Bira]

No, that is precisely what the GM does not get to say—at least not without being a dick. Hidden limitations only discoverable after it's too late to plan for them need very good reasons to exist, and this just doesn't have one.

Yerameyahu nailed it. It's not a "hidden" limitation at all, it's something everyone should know from minute one of the campaign. I believe it's even stated in the book. It's simply a common sense thing - of course a mainframe or nexus is going to have much more storage space than a commlink. Even if the commlink has enough space that you don't need to worry about it 99% of the time, of course the entire contents of a mainframe's storage will exceed the space you have available in your commlink.

On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that most missions will not involve downloading the entire contents of a mainframe's storage, and if they ever do the Johnson is going to provide a large storage unit for the purpose. Downloading the limited set of data most runs require should pose no problem, even if you do take some additional paydata on the side. But copying everything on a mainframe into a commlink is pretty obviously impossible. Complaining about it is like complaining that putting a loaded gun to your character's head and pulling the trigger causes damage.

[kzt]

Don't quote me on this, because I'm not 100% sure, but I think most of the Fourth Edition Matrix rules were written by one author. For the most part, the SR4 writing pool was very small because the project was kept secret even from some freelancers (like myself) for quite a long time. The rest of the freelancers were brought in for playtesting, but the number of writers involved in creating the rules was fairly small.

Frank publicly blamed Aaron for the goo that is the SR4 matrix rules, and Aaron's obnoxious defense of the wonderfulness of RAW Matrix supports that. He's also pointed out that there was at least one other author, because a critical concept gets used as though it means something else in one part of the rules. I can't remember the exact point, but it provided a reason for the opaqueness and internal contradictions of the rules.

[Heath Robinson]

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that it's far easier for one person to come up with a complete set of rules that are internally consistent than it is for a group of people, each writing different sections, to do the same. So while things may seem better thought out and organized when done by a single person, that doesn't mean the same amount of effort and energy didn't go into the other.

Frank also had the advantages of getting to see the SR4 BBB matrix rules in action before writing his houserules, and having no deadline. Frank even had an advantage from not needing to keep his rules secret from the world at large, as they're not intended to be a commercial venture. To paraphrase Linus' Law, "to enough eyes every problem is flat."

[Semerkhet]

Good discussion. I don't have much to add except...

I decided to post my amusement that one of the original SR creators (with only 12 total posts) throws out his viewpoint on the original Matrix design and the discussion continues as though nothing was said. Maybe that sounds fanboy-ish, but I'm intrigued that Mr. Dowd still takes the time to peruse DS now and then.

[Draco18s]

I decided to post my amusement that one of the original SR creators (with only 12 total posts) throws out his viewpoint on the original Matrix design and the discussion continues as though nothing was said. Maybe that sounds fanboy-ish, but I'm intrigued that Mr. Dowd still takes the time to peruse DS now and then.

I didn't even see his post. Interesting..

Whomever upthread said that the SR Matrix rules were written to play out like an action movie is spot on. During my tenure (I cannot speak to what occurred afterward) the Matrix rules were probably our least successful rules set. There were a variety of reasons for this, but the primary reason was our inability to translate a primarily visual/sensorial experience into dice, tables, and goofy rules.

"Inability to translate visual/sensorial experience into dice." Huh. You know. Like the entire rest of the game. Last I checked there was a Perception skill that covered that kind of stuff.

(Not to bash Tom Dowd, but that's what I thought when I read his post. RPG games exist to simulate "sensorial" experiences and emulate effects with dice. The dice might be representing a physics action, rather than raw visual data, but really, when you have a matrix that effectively emulates Real Life, its ok to use existing game rules for those virtualized scenarios. The end result is the same: the character takes an action, using a skill and an attribute, with success modified by gear against an opposing force).

[Demonseed Elite]

Frank also had the advantages of getting to see the SR4 BBB matrix rules in action before writing his houserules, and having no deadline. Frank even had an advantage from not needing to keep his rules secret from the world at large, as they're not intended to be a commercial venture. To paraphrase Linus' Law, "to enough eyes every problem is flat."

He also didn't have any developers saying that he needed to do it a certain way because of design decisions. Which, of course, is part of a developer's job but it does put constrains on the writers at times. I mean, when I saw SR4 during playtest, I wanted so badly for them to remove technomancers, but I was totally overruled on that. I'm not bitter about it, it's a direction they wanted to go with SR4. I didn't like it much, but it's not my call.

Unofficial material is much easier to write! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kjones]

The interesting thing that I see about Tom Dowd's post is that it matches something I've seen in every old-school game developer - the rules aren't set in stone, mess around with them yourself until you find something that works. Maybe it's just me, but people seem less willing to do that nowadays (especially with The Other RPG).

[Ol' Scratch]

The interesting thing that I see about Tom Dowd's post is that it matches something I've seen in every old-school game developer - the rules aren't set in stone, mess around with them yourself until you find something that works. Maybe it's just me, but people seem less willing to do that nowadays (especially with The Other RPG).

That's been a big beef of mine for a while now. All the people who run around shouting about "RAW" and using it to bully people into shutting up is totally ruining the hobby for me. Apparently it's some cardinal sin to sit back and discuss ways to change, improve, or re-interpret the rules so that they make more sense or are more comfortable to use. It's one of the main reasons I get worked up a lot around here.

[D2F]

"Inability to translate visual/sensorial experience into dice." Huh. You know. Like the entire rest of the game. Last I checked there was a Perception skill that covered that kind of stuff.

That's not what he was talking about.

[D2F]

That's been a big beef of mine for a while now. All the people who run around shouting about "RAW" and using it to bully people into shutting up is totally ruining the hobby for me. Apparently it's some cardinal sin to sit back and discuss ways to change, improve, or re-interpret the rules so that they make more sense or are more comfortable to use. It's one of the main reasons I get worked up a lot around here.

The main reason is that you are having trouble discerning when a discussion of alterntive rulings is appropriate and when not. In a thread about a particular rules question, you can only argue by the RAW. Everything else will lead to no result and endless battles of opinions. It's really quite pointless.
On the other side are thread that specifically deal with house rules, rule interpretations, differen rues proposal, or even complete rewrites. In such threads chimin in one's own opinion or one's own house rules not only makes sense but constitutes a nescessary and welcome contribution.

[Draco18s]

That's not what he was talking about.

Care to...fix it for me?

Or are you just going to say "you're wrong" and move on without attempting to correct me? If so, then "I'm right, so STFU."

[D2F]

Care to...fix it for me?

Or are you just going to say "you're wrong" and move on without attempting to correct me? If so, then "I'm right, so STFU."

Nah, I just wasn't sure whether you were joking. What he was talking about was not how to represent matrix perception into rules, but how to represent something the developer can only imagine in audio-visual terms (read: a movie sequence, the imagination of a story sequence, the imagination of how they would like things to look like in SR, where they out into a audio-visual medium) into abstract, yet easy to use rules that are fun and internally consistent.

In other words:

How do you translate something your see and hear and feel into dice rolls? How do you translate a rollercoaster ride into dice rolls? How do you translate your first kiss into dice rolls? How do you translate the death of a loved on into dice rolls?

[Ol' Scratch]

It really is the same thing as astral projection. If you can do one (astral projection), you should be able to do the other (VR) using pretty much the same rules philosophies. The problem is Shadowrun has always insisted on making the Matrix rules convoluted and alien to the rest of the system.

[D2F]

It really is the same thing as astral projection.

I get where you're coming from. But how would you represent paydata and encryption on the stral plane? How would represent access restriction on the astral pane? Or would you do without them?

[Draco18s]

In other words:

How do you translate something your see and hear and feel into dice rolls? How do you translate a rollercoaster ride into dice rolls? How do you translate your first kiss into dice rolls? How do you translate the death of a loved on into dice rolls?

Ok, I get what you're saying here, but I disagree that hacking the matrix is similar to those types of experiences. Hacking isn't something that happens to you, otherwise there would be no programs, options, actions, or results. Hacking can feel like those experiences, but that's not what it is as a whole.