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> Grounding, Can you still do it?
Emeraldknite
post Apr 19 2010, 04:21 PM
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I was asked my my mage player if you can still ground a spell through an active foci. I looked through thw SR4A book and didn't find any real mention of it. So is it safe to assume that they took this aspect out? I remember that you could as late as 2nd edition. Or I could be wrong...
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Draco18s
post Apr 19 2010, 04:22 PM
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No. You can't do it anymore.
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nezumi
post Apr 19 2010, 04:28 PM
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Unfortunately, no. It was dropped as of 3rd edition. If you were to re-implement it (which would be fun), I'd recommend directional grounding - you determine what any items 'base' plane is, and you can only ground to that. So a dual-natured critter or human's base plane is the mundane. A materialized elemental's base plane is the astral. A foci's base plane is the mundane and so on.

(The reason grounding was dropped was because a mage would conjure a spirit, go astral, visit a bunch of physical guards, tell the spirit to materialize, then blast the spirit.)
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Caadium
post Apr 19 2010, 05:19 PM
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Or you could also limit it to things that were active on the plane that you were on. For example, an astrally projecting mage could cast a Stunball at that active foci, however it would only affect those within range that were astrally active in some fashion (either perceiving, dual-natured, or had their own active foci, etc). The mundane that would be hugging the target of the stunball wouldn't be affected but the crated Hellhound 1 meter away would be. This means that the foci wearer only puts themselves at risk with the foci, and it also limits the ability to use a spirit as a bomb anchor.

Edited because I typoed the spell.
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Draco18s
post Apr 19 2010, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 19 2010, 12:19 PM) *
Or you could also limit it to things that were active on the plane that you were on. For example, an astrally projecting mage could cast a Stunbolt at that active foci, however it would only affect those within range that were astrally active in some fashion (either perceiving, dual-natured, or had their own active foci, etc). The mundane that would be hugging the target of the stunbolt wouldn't be affected but the crated Hellhound 1 meter away would be. This means that the foci wearer only puts themselves at risk with the foci, and it also limits the ability to use a spirit as a bomb anchor.


Stunbolt effects one target. And you could target the hellhound with it normally. Your little house rule there is in fact how it works by RAW.
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Caadium
post Apr 19 2010, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 19 2010, 09:37 AM) *
Stunbolt effects one target. And you could target the hellhound with it normally. Your little house rule there is in fact how it works by RAW.


Oops, I meant to type Stunnball, not Stunbolt. Edited and corrected.
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Draco18s
post Apr 19 2010, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 19 2010, 12:37 PM) *
Your little house rule there is in fact how it works by RAW.


Stunball on the astral plane already effects all astrally active entities on the astral plane.
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Caadium
post Apr 19 2010, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 19 2010, 09:43 AM) *
Stunball on the astral plane already effects all astrally active entities on the astral plane.


This is a post about grounding. I was suggesting that you do not let AoE spells ground through to the other plane unless someone else in that AoE is vulnerable to grounding as well.

Yes, as written a Stunball cast in Astral affects every astrally active creature within range.

I was saying, as an addistion to Nezumi, that if you were to bring it back it would need to be limited so you could no longer stunBALL (got it right that time) an entire party through 1 foci or 1 spirit. I'm saying, like Nezumi, if you brought grounding back as a houserule that there are ways to consider limiting it so it didn't suffer the same problems it used to have. By my suggestion, if you ground it through 1 active foci and there was someone else within range that also had an active foci they would also be hit by the grounded spell; however the mundanes between them would not.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 19 2010, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 19 2010, 12:51 PM) *
This is a post about grounding. I was suggesting that you do not let AoE spells ground through to the other plane unless someone else in that AoE is vulnerable to grounding as well.

Yes, as written a Stunball cast in Astral affects every astrally active creature within range.

I was saying, as an addistion to Nezumi, that if you were to bring it back it would need to be limited so you could no longer stunBALL (got it right that time) an entire party through 1 foci or 1 spirit. I'm saying, like Nezumi, if you brought grounding back as a houserule that there are ways to consider limiting it so it didn't suffer the same problems it used to have. By my suggestion, if you ground it through 1 active foci and there was someone else within range that also had an active foci they would also be hit by the grounded spell; however the mundanes between them would not.


I think the point is that already happens. You can totally manaball the focus, and if something is also astrally active and in the AoE they get manaballed as well. How I'd limit it is people who are linked to the focus or spirit, the summoning mage or whoever is bound to the focus is vulnerable even if they are not currently astrally active.
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nezumi
post Apr 19 2010, 06:40 PM
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What's the problem with grounding through an active focus? That's exactly the point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It keeps people faaar from the mage, since he's like a walking bomb.

However, you could also cap the power of the spell by the power of the channel. A force 1 foci can only channel a force 1 stunball. Enough to piss everyone off, but not really kill anyone.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 19 2010, 08:18 PM
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All I have to say is Good Riddance on Grounding...

Keep the Faith
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BlueMax
post Apr 19 2010, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 19 2010, 01:18 PM) *
All I have to say is Good Riddance on Grounding...

Keep the Faith


To each his own. We got used to grounding after 10 , or so, years. Wouldn't bother me if it came back.

BlueMax
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Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 19 2010, 09:42 PM
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I always liked grounding, it was a nice limit on mages and focuses. But on a games rules level I understand that it became a loophole if you would summon a spirit and channel fireballs through it as a workaround on being able to target norms from the astral. We called handling that good GMing when the rule was in, but it is a rules flaw when something is that exploitable and requires good GMing is in. I wish they had kept it in but limited it somehow, like not through spirits, or you can only target those with an astral link to the thing you are channeling it through etc.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 19 2010, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 19 2010, 11:51 AM) *
This is a post about grounding. I was suggesting that you do not let AoE spells ground through to the other plane unless someone else in that AoE is vulnerable to grounding as well.

That's, uh, kind of the point of Grounding. To affect the opposite plane you're on. Why would you be grounding spells if there wasn't anyone to affect with them anyway?
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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 19 2010, 10:42 PM
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I can understand the love hate relationship for grounding, to mages it's something that they have to be wary of but also something that they can abuse if they like. For mundanes it's one more fragging piece of magic you have no hope of defending against. I would support grounded AoE's only affecting dual natured or magical targets as a compromise.

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Draco18s
post Apr 20 2010, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 19 2010, 05:32 PM) *
That's, uh, kind of the point of Grounding. To affect the opposite plane you're on. Why would you be grounding spells if there wasn't anyone to affect with them anyway?


See:

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 19 2010, 12:43 PM) *
Stunball on the astral plane already effects all astrally active entities on the astral plane.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 20 2010, 01:58 AM
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See: "The opposite plane you're on." Opposite. Not the same. The one you are not currently on. Opposite. Grounding a stunball from the astral plane to the physical realm. Opposite plane.
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Draco18s
post Apr 20 2010, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 19 2010, 08:58 PM) *
See: "The opposite plane you're on." Opposite. Not the same. The one you are not currently on. Opposite. Grounding a stunball from the astral plane to the physical realm. Opposite plane.


You were replying to someone with a comment identical to mine. E.g. I said the same thing, several hours ago, about their same idea. If you look at the post you quoted you'd notice that it has a quote box of my post.
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Falconer
post Apr 20 2010, 02:19 AM
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Wow... exactly... grounding out was one of the WORST mechanics they ever came up with. It was one of the biggest abuses that 3e cleaned up.

Mage recons at astral speed and proceeds to knockout/kill every guard using grounding out munchkannery. Mundanes were completely defenseless against it and had no way to attack the mage doing it. At least now the mage has to be present somehow, or his spirit must be present somehow.



And I suggest to those arguing for it, that they actually READ the rules... a MANA spell grounded out ONLY affected the dual-natured grounding out target. PHYSICAL spells grounded out through it kept their AOE. (IE: Powerball or indirect combat). (lots of this info is on p149-150 of the SR2 book).

When describing how a spell works... a spell ALWAYS grounds into its target's aura to deliver it's effect in that section. Just it then goes into the special cases for crossing planes, which is what most old timers are referring to when talking about grounding out.


One thing 4e has done better than the rest is to limit magicians from dominating compared to the rest of the party. The march from 1e -> 2e -> 3e -> 4e has seen a steady decline in magical power.
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BlueMax
post Apr 20 2010, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 19 2010, 07:19 PM) *
Wow... exactly... grounding out was one of the WORST mechanics they ever came up with. It was one of the biggest abuses that 3e cleaned up.

Mage recons at astral speed and proceeds to knockout/kill every guard using grounding out munchkannery. Mundanes were completely defenseless against it and had no way to attack the mage doing it. At least now the mage has to be present somehow, or his spirit must be present somehow.



And I suggest to those arguing for it, that they actually READ the rules... a MANA spell grounded out ONLY affected the dual-natured grounding out target. PHYSICAL spells grounded out through it kept their AOE. (IE: Powerball or indirect combat). (lots of this info is on p149-150 of the SR2 book).

When describing how a spell works... a spell ALWAYS grounds into its target's aura in that section. Just it then goes into the special cases for crossing planes, which is what most old timers are referring to when talking about grounding out.


One thing 4e has done better than the rest is to limit magicians from dominating compared to the rest of the party. The march from 1e -> 2e -> 3e -> 4e has seen a steady decline in magical power.

Funny, you and I disagree on about every point. Yet, I am sure that how the game is played at each table varies. At our table, nobody plays anything but Mages or TMs.
To each group their own.

BlueMax
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Falconer
post Apr 20 2010, 02:41 AM
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Bluemax:

Then do I need to actually cite the full text...

"Foci and active astral perception both create bridges between the phys world and the astral plane that can be exploited by spellcasters in astral space. A mana spell thrown at a target with such a dual profile, physical and astral, will only affect that target, even if it is an area-effect spell. The spiritual component is contained within the physical component, so the area-effect is dampened. ...
A physical spell thrown by an astral caster at a dual-natured target will ground out through the target's physical component. The physical component of the target is of course affected, but because of that component's adjacency to the physical world, area-effects of certain spells continue onward. ..."

If you actively disagree w/ everything I just said, you were playing by house rules and not RAW.


My general thought on most things... is if they can be abused they will be abused. So I don't like rules which allow abusive situations to occur.

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Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 20 2010, 02:57 AM
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I'm going to make a wild guess that he disagrees with your opinions on grounding and mage power level across the editions and not the rules.
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Jaid
post Apr 20 2010, 03:00 AM
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of course, if you really want to be mean, you just need a spirit with the astral gateway power...
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BlueMax
post Apr 20 2010, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 19 2010, 06:41 PM) *
Bluemax:

Then do I need to actually cite the full text...

"Foci and active astral perception both create bridges between the phys world and the astral plane that can be exploited by spellcasters in astral space. A mana spell thrown at a target with such a dual profile, physical and astral, will only affect that target, even if it is an area-effect spell. The spiritual component is contained within the physical component, so the area-effect is dampened. ...
A physical spell thrown by an astral caster at a dual-natured target will ground out through the target's physical component. The physical component of the target is of course affected, but because of that component's adjacency to the physical world, area-effects of certain spells continue onward. ..."

If you actively disagree w/ everything I just said, you were playing by house rules and not RAW.


My general thought on most things... is if they can be abused they will be abused. So I don't like rules which allow abusive situations to occur.


If you read up at the top, I said I missed it from the early days and it wouldnt bother me if it game back. A few notes since your making accusations about our game
1. We play 4th Ed Raw and therefore do not have grounding.
2. I disagree with your statement that grounding is the worst mechanic. One could hope I have a right to my opinion but hey, I understand not everyone has the same opinion on opinions.
3. Practicioners of unlicensed munckanerry find themselves wandering game stores with a scarlet mark in California. It makes the problem short lived.
4. The rules portion is 100% rules accurate. Your opinions are your own.
5. I don't find Magic able characters limited at all. Same goes for TMs. At our table, when testing, Sprites and Spirits rule the scene. This is ONLY my opinion and experience.

BlueMax
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Emeraldknite
post Apr 20 2010, 04:46 AM
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Seriously guys? Question answered, Close thread.

As far as I can tell and as far as I know, Since first edit, every person that I have talked to that played the game thought Grounding was a load of crap since their GM 's abused them with it.
The question was posted because I have such a player and he has been complaining that he can't get any foci and junk because he was deathly afraid of grounding. He stopped playing the game during second edit. So he has been pretty much useless till now with the notification of this rules change.

And opinions aside...The Devs must have thought this rule was utter cheese before since they changed it.
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