Question: Logic boosting and Knowledge Skills Options

[Minchandre]

So, it's entirely possible that this has been addressed before, and it'll probably be in something embarrassing like a FAQ or erratum somewhere, but how do LOG increasing 'ware (PuSHeD, Cerebral Booster) interact with free Knowledge skills points? If I were a GM, I would say the bonus is gamey and doesn't count, but as a player, I must try and munchkin all I can out of my character. From a fluff perspective, it actually makes sense for the bonus to be provided though (or at least some bonus to be provided), if the character was supposed to have been augmented some time ago.

[Samoth]

I don't think you'd get free knowledge points if you bought those augments at chargen. If you're looking for munch out a stat, Logic is a pretty poor choice.

[DireRadiant]

Based on the intended character build sequence, as augmentations come after you buy skills, you shouldn't be getting more free skills. However, that's a minor implicit relationship, which is made even less of a limit since right where it tells you the build sequence it also tells you that you can change it if you feel like it.

[Yerameyahu]

PuSHeD is +1 LOG-linked skill tests, though, right? So it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Minchandre]

PuSHeD is +1 LOG-linked skill tests, though, right? So it wouldn't matter anyway.

You're right. However, Cerebral Boosters actually boost LOG.

The consensus seems to be no dice. Oh well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

If it's a permanent boost to your attributes, you most definitely should get the points. Recalculating your stats after augmentation is part of the character creation process.

Or do you also not adjust your Condition Monitors if your Body or Willpower change due to augmentation?
Or do you suffer encumbrance penalties if you wear more armor than the Body score you purchased with your attribute points, despite augmentation?
Or do you not recalculate your Initiative if your Reaction or Intuition change?
etc.

[RedFish]

If it's a permanent boost to your attributes, you most definitely should get the points. Recalculating your stats after augmentation is part of the character creation process.

Or do you also not adjust your Condition Monitors if your Body or Willpower change due to augmentation?
Or do you suffer encumbrance penalties if you wear more armor than the Body score you purchased with your attribute points, despite augmentation?
Or do you not recalculate your Initiative if your Reaction or Intuition change?
etc.

That seems to be pretty questionable logic at best. Disregarding the fact that there are no other stats that boost the amount of BPs you get at the beginning of the game and thus the parallel to your examples is not (to me at least) apparent at all, a change in your condition monitor is mechanically hardly different from a change in your dice pool due to attribute changes if trying to fire a pistol - the permanency of a boost has no bearing on the effect in either case.

A change in logic or intuition in the course of the game doesn't magically give me more knowledge points - a change in body or willpower will however change my Condition Monitors.

As a sidenote - are there any cyber-/bioimplants that boost Intuition in any of the game supplements?

This post has been edited by RedFish: Apr 19 2010, 10:46 PM

[Ol' Scratch]

1) You don't apply temporary changes to your character sheet. If your character has, say, a bunch of drugs available, your don't actually change your attributes because of them. When they happen, then you apply their effects. Permanent changes are exactly that: permanent.

2) Augmentations don't have to be recent. You could have had them for years if not decades for older characters. Not that it matters either way.

2) Once again, recalculating your stats is part of the character creation process. That includes everything, be it Essence loss, Magic loss because of Essence loss, knowledge points due to altered Logic/Intuition scores, changes to your condition monitors due to Body/Willpower boosts, Initiative changes due to Reaction/Intuition boosts, Lifestyle costs due to certain implants, etc. You don't get to ignore one aspect just 'cause. Character creation follows a general order, but at the end it doesn't really matter because you get to go back and readjust everything even without any augmentations. If at the end you decide that you want a higher Logic at the cost of your Strength, bam, you adjust your knowledge skill points then, too (as well as adjusting any weapon entries you had that use Strength to determine the DV).

Using the arguments you guys are trying to offer here, why not just give yourself a Logic and Intuition of 6 early on, then go back and readjust it to whatever you want later after you purchase your skills. You'll still get 36 Knowledge Skill Points either way. Hooray! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[DireRadiant]

Are the attributes re calculated, or are augmented attributes written in parentheses?

When I raise an attribute, do I pay karma based on the natural or augmented value?

[Ol' Scratch]

How does that matter? As for your questions, it depends entirely upon the augmentation. Adept boosts, for example, are treated as natural ones for purposes of increasing them with Karma.

[Muspellsheimr]

Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation-a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh good, I guess that answers the other questions then. You don't get improved condition monitors and your Magic isn't affected by Essence loss.

[DireRadiant]

Just for you Dr Funkenstein. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

P. 88 SR4A
"The player also needs to indicate how many boxes the character has
on the Physical and Stun Tracks of his Condition Monitor: 8 +
(Willpower ÷ 2, round up) for Stun, and 8 + (Body ÷ 2, round up) for
Physical. Use the character’s augmented attributes rather than the natural
ratings (yes, this means that if a character receives a temporary Body
or Willpower attribute boost that character will temporarily have additional
boxes on the Condition Monitor). For each of the character’s
cyberlimbs another box is added to the Physical Condition Monitor.
All remaining boxes on those tracks should be blackened out."

This is after the P. 86
"Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with."

And the Finishing Touches - Final Statistics section, where the condition monitors are done, only refer to condition monitors and Initiatives.

[Ol' Scratch]

Which now means melee weapon stats don't change, too! Yay! I love rules that are contradictory and ridiculous just for the sake of being so! Consistency? Who needs that? Let's throw around arbitrary rules just for the hell of it, then proceed to spend paragraph after paragraph negating those arbitrary rules.

[Muspellsheimr]

Let me redo this for you.

Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation-a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.

Melee damage is not character generation specific.
Condition monitor is not character generation specific.
Essence Loss is not an attribute boost.


Shut the fuck up.

[Ol' Scratch]

Let's throw around arbitrary rules just for the hell of it, then proceed to spend paragraph after paragraph negating those arbitrary rules.

In case you missed the point about what I was saying, despite saying it in the previous post (which has progressed from my original comments in the thread; again, in case you missed it). What's the point of restricting augmentations from affecting your character fully, only to turn around and repeatedly and constantly overrule that rule? It's asinine.

And I'm pretty sure I have the right to say things if I so choose. Even if you don't care much for what I have to say.

[Minchandre]

Thank you, Muspellsheimr. I figured it was in the book or an erratum or something somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

[Yerameyahu]

So, clear entry from the book. Problem solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Bad rules to the rescue...

[Udoshi]

As a sidenote - are there any cyber-/bioimplants that boost Intuition in any of the game supplements?

Very little. Intuition is one of -the- hardest stats in the game to raise. There are two EPE genetreatments that raise int-linked skills, but not the stat itself. Genetic optimization can raise your natural maximum on intuition.

There's also Metagenetic Improvement, and Exceptional Attribute, but that's pretty much all that comes to mind.

[Minchandre]

Bad rules to the rescue...

I'd say that the rules are okay, that it's probably one of the most ambiguous points of the game, and that people would be pissed off either way.

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem is how they went about it. They created a general rule that basically says "augmentations don't affect the rest of your character," then proceeded to make exceptions to that rule at every turn. Why bother with the former if you're just going to constantly negate it? Especially since it's all so very arbitrary? Why wouldn't a permanently augmented Logic or Intuition score affect your knowledge skills, and how does that argument not also affect all the other things to which exceptions were made? Why even base Knowledge Skill Points on those attributes anyway, if those attributes don't actually matter except in one very specific, narrow way? Why have modifiers to those attributes at all if they don't actually affect them as true attributes (but are instead closer to the "LOG-based skills" clauses)? etc.

[Jaid]

In case you missed the point about what I was saying, despite saying it in the previous post (which has progressed from my original comments in the thread; again, in case you missed it). What's the point of restricting augmentations from affecting your character fully, only to turn around and repeatedly and constantly overrule that rule? It's asinine.

And I'm pretty sure I have the right to say things if I so choose. Even if you don't care much for what I have to say.

it isn't overruling that rule. as soon as you exit chargen, all those numbers are based on your CURRENT attributes and such. your bonus BP for knowledge skills in chargen, on the other hand, is based on your natural attributes before modifications. your dicepools that involve logic would be at the augmented value, just not your previously learned skills.

[DireRadiant]

p 88 SR4A
"If you gave your character cyberware, bioware, or purchased adept
powers, the character’s attributes may have changed. If so, write down
your augmented attribute ratings in parentheses to reflect the bonuses.
Write affected attributes in this fashion: Body 4 (6). The first number
is the character’s natural Body rating; the second, the augmented
rating. In most situations, your character will use the augmented rating
unless otherwise noted."

[Ol' Scratch]

"In most situations, your character will use the augmented rating unless otherwise noted."

And two pages earlier it says "Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect other aspects of character creation."

That's what I, personally, call contradictory rules largely due to how arbitrary it all is. It's basically saying "these are your attributes except when they're not your attributes, though we're still calling them your attributes because they are. Even though they're not. Except when they are."