Ends of the Matrix Options

[kjones]

(spinning off from the thread on encryption)

Has anyone here read End of the Matrix, Frank Trollman's Matrix rules rewrite? Has anyone tried them? Thoughts? How do they work "in action"?

[Method]

Yes he posted it here many moons ago. Interesting read.

[Prime Mover]

definetly stole some of flavor if not the crunch.

[augmentin]

(spinning off from the thread on encryption)

Has anyone here read End of the Matrix, Frank Trollman's Matrix rules rewrite? Has anyone tried them? Thoughts? How do they work "in action"?

This is exactly why I wish FT could avoid fits of internet hate whenever someone disagrees with him. His stuff is really good.

[Evilness45]

I didn't like his comment about bone lacing and essence. Claiming that bones are dead tissues is false.
Also, essence represents the body's integrity. Since bones are actually alive (they do contain live cells) and the core is responsible for the production of red cells, I assume that bone lacing would compromise all that.
Thus, essence loss.

[Method]

I didn't like his comment about bone lacing and essence.

I'd have to re-read it, but I agree. Bone is definitely a living tissue, and Essence is meant to be a holistic kind of thing anyway. I wonder if Frank's thoughts on that have changed any.

[Dread Moores]

It's an interesting read. The fluff is rather impressive. But I just couldn't see myself using the rules in my group. A lot of it seems overly complicated, which is something that SR4 has really helped my group avoid. Most importantly, it changes the structure of the game in some basic ways, by having brains be a hackable thing. I'm really pretty sure that my players would get bored pretty quickly when they need to be looking at that many layers of defense. There's enough "necessary defensive measures" creep in SR4 as is.

[Draco18s]

I read through all of the fluff and for the most part I think I'm down with it. The crunch was...a little too crunchy for my (1am) tastes, so I skipped over it. But if it was as well thought out as his fluff and conforms to his fluff then I'd be willing to try it. There were a few parts that I disagreed with off the bat, but forced myself to not object and keep reading. I don't recall what those parts were any more.

I particularly like the fact that he included not one, not two, but three character attributes as being necessary or at least semi-vital to being a successful hacker (rather than having a 1 in everything, thus giving you 200 more BP to spend on more important things and not really suffering for it).

[Stahlseele]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/841961522_7krbF-L.jpg
This was the end of the matrix. The new thing is just a fad.
Also: Yes, Franks Matrix Stuff is awesome. Complicated too.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not too wild about the brain hacking* either, and there are some fluff parts I don't like so much (mostly the high density signal stuff).

The crunch however, was quite clever; basically using the Spellcasting system for computers. Hacking is a lot like "casting" programs at computers. That's really quite the Gibsonian/Hollywood interface thing to do.

We'll probably adopt the system in our group, but without the brain hacking. Excising it is going to be a chore however.


*I'm not saying it can/can't be done; it's just not the flavor I want.

[augmentin]

Didn't Frank put out a simpler version at one point that used the existing rule set with fixes for the "broken" parts? Does anyone have a link for that?

[Demonseed Elite]

Just to repeat myself from another thread:

Frank's Matrix material is well thought-out. I wish he'd been involved in the SR4 Matrix mechanics conversations. It is different than the standard rules, but he takes the time to consider all of the considerations that the SR writers had to think about when developing the Matrix rules for Fourth Edition. And in many cases, I feel Frank thought about them more clearly.

Too often, I see criticisms of the Matrix rules without proposed solutions, because the solutions are hard. And many of the things the critics say they would want effectively destroy the Matrix as a playable part of Shadowrun, which obviously no Shadowrun writer is ever going to do (or would be allowed to do).

The complexity is a possible issue, but it's hard to solve the "Matrix is too simple-minded!" criticism without creeping into complexity. The brain hacking is another possible sticking point, but his reasoning for it is solid. For his interpretation of the Matrix to work, it sort of needs the possibility of brain hacking. And since internal consistency is one of the big criticisms of the existing Matrix system, I can't really knock Frank for being internally consistent.

[Draco18s]

The complexity is a possible issue, but it's hard to solve the "Matrix is too simple-minded!" criticism without creeping into complexity. The brain hacking is another possible sticking point, but his reasoning for it is solid. For his interpretation of the Matrix to work, it sort of needs the possibility of brain hacking. And since internal consistency is one of the big criticisms of the existing Matrix system, I can't really knock Frank for being internally consistent.

What it does is it means that Technomancers aren't immune. Because without brain hacking it'd be like saying you can't cast spells at a mage. Not because of counterspelling, but just because spells simply do not work on awakened critters.

[Method]

Yeah, as a study in logical game design this is a great model. It's internally consistant, supports it's own fluff and fits into the game world without judicious use of a crowbar. But the complexity runs counter to the stated objectives of SR4: namely simplicity.

[spasheridan]

Are the existing matrix rules simple? I don't really think they are...

Agent Smith..

Hall of Mirrors...

[Draco18s]

Yeah, as a study in logical game design this is a great model. It's internally consistant, supports it's own fluff and fits into the game world without judicious use of a crowbar. But the complexity runs counter to the stated objectives of SR4: namely simplicity.

Are they less simple than any other portion of the rules?

[X-Kalibur]

My only knock on his system is that someone with no implants, comm-link, or anything like that are not only susceptible to brain hacking, but moreso. Otherwise I fully enjoy his rules.

[Demonseed Elite]

Are the existing matrix rules simple? I don't really think they are...

Agent Smith..

Hall of Mirrors...

Actually, I think the SR4 Matrix rules are fairly simple. But the side effect of that simplicity is they've been pretty easy to break or take advantage of in specific situations.

And there's also consistency issues, separate from the complexity/simplicity problem.

[Draco18s]

My only knock on his system is that someone with no implants, comm-link, or anything like that are not only susceptible to brain hacking, but moreso. Otherwise I fully enjoy his rules.

Its an issue, but it entirely fits within his fluff. Besides, the only people who wouldn't be part of a PAN (your clothes have chips, by wearing them you have a PAN) would be your fresh-out-of-the-woods shapeshifters.

Who either very quickly get hooked up with a PAN to protect them, or get brainwashed. And brainwashed shapeshifters would explain why there are so many in an urban environment: they've been told to think a certain way and have been "integrated" into society.

[Darkeus]

His ideas were cool and the fluff well supported but the rules were not for me and I really didn't agree with some points.

That said, it was a solid set of rules, just not a good rule set for me...

[Error]

I'm about on the same page as Darkeus. FT posted an interesting and consistent system based on how he thought it should work. A particular point of issue for me is the brain hacking. While I actually agree with a lot of what he said, brain-hacking is one level of GifS I'm not interested in miming.

One thing I really like about his document is that it really made me think about the matrix, just how the rules work and how integrated it is into the system. Not that I hadn't...just not from the perspective of the different framework he set up. He makes very good points about datajacks, ways that a Simrig can be useful and he does some really neat stuff with Decompiling that I really like.

I plan on reading through it all more in depth and looking at it from some different angles before I really consider using it. Some of the info, even the simple things like separating the programs into categories other than just Common Use and Hacking make a lot of sense (especially tying the various computer skills to particular groups instead of per skill).

An interesting read overall.

[otakusensei]

I agree that the matrix rules need work, but I don't think Frank's is the right direction. He does good work for what he does, but I don't think it would fit with the over all game.

Brain hacking and his stance on essence are sticking points I couldn't agree with. Getting that lacing material in place and the rest of the body dealing with the weight and presence of it are too big an issue to hand waive, even if the bone itself isn't drastically effected. Essence is a holistic concept, and mechanically it's a tool to balance. Brain hacking is something one of my players would love to see. However I could see it not only turning Shadowrun into something else entirely in short order, but the rest of my group would see it as a burden. In game we've had things like that before, and have tools that do similar things now, but nothing as widely available or easy to use. I'll stick to ASSIST conditioning, thank you.

If you don't fill some role in Shadowrun, you need to protect against it. To protect yourself you either rely on someone else or spend some of your resources on it. Being a classless system it doesn't lend itself well to the Fight/Mage/Thief/Cleric dynamic. There are party roles, but they are muddy to begin with. I've seen too many shadowruns stopped for lack of someone bringing some simple tool with them, let alone a PC death because someone hadn't expected the opposition to have a paracritter. As a player the last thing I need at character gen is another frontier to defend.

Of course this whole conversation is rather uncharitable on Dumpshock as Frank has been banned and can no longer defend his system. I'm sure there are people here who prefer that, and the rest can find him easily enough.

[Draco18s]

Brain hacking is easy to add into a game without it needing to be a concern:
"Brain hacking can be done, but the knowledge and tools required are generally beyond a PC's ability to acquire." As well as stating that a human brain has a signal range of 0 or less, and that any device that the person in question might be using to increase their signal range would subvert any brain hacking attempts.

Technically, Black IC is the brain-hack tool. But its not refined to the point of allowing brainwashing and is the current SOTA in the field of brain hacking.

[Demonseed Elite]

Technically, Black IC is the brain-hack tool. But its not refined to the point of allowing brainwashing and is the current SOTA in the field of brain hacking.

Programmable ASIST Biofeedback is refined to the point of allowing brainwashing and exists in the game, but it does require a bit of set-up.

[Draco18s]

Programmable ASIST Biofeedback is refined to the point of allowing brainwashing and exists in the game, but it does require a bit of set-up.

Haven't heard of it, but see my initial text:
"Brain hacking can be done, but the knowledge and tools required are generally beyond a PC's ability to acquire."
Which is basically what you said: it takes a bit of setup and special hardware.