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> Combat Shotguns in Shadowrun
Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 01:56 PM
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I have noticed that SR players tend to like Submachine Guns and Assault Rifles and the like. I personally think Full auto is over-rated. It had heavy penalties and can never be full compensated for by the runner(drones and vehicles no included). One under utilized area is Automatic Shotguns. With a few mods I can get a Enfield AS-7 to have no recoil on a long burst on both burst in a pass. And with the Ammo options you can have with a combat shotgun would make it a very nasty weapon.

RC 6
Gas vent 3
sling
foregrip
personalized grip or electronic firing

Submachine gun on full auto RC5 (complex Action) is taking at least a -4 to his die pool to do +9 DV

Shotgun long burst RC 6. two long bursts (Simple Actions). no dice penalty and +5DV for each shot.
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Evilness45
post Apr 21 2010, 02:00 PM
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Don't forget the magnificient range the shotgun can get.
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Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Evilness45 @ Apr 21 2010, 03:00 PM) *
Don't forget the magnificient range the shotgun can get.

add an improved Range Finder, You have no range penalties for short and medium range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTPz59y5538...feature=related

This is The AA-12 auto shotgun. This a real combat shotgun with options
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brennanhawkwood
post Apr 21 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Evilness45 @ Apr 21 2010, 10:00 AM) *
Don't forget the magnificient range the shotgun can get.


According to SR4A, shotgun slug ranges are equivalent to those of an SMG and flechette ranges are equivelant to those of a heavy pistol. Even without using any tricks to offset range penalties, in most of the SR games I've played in or run, those ranges are more than sufficient since most firefights tend to be in urban environments at fairly close distances.

As a player, my most successful 'muscle'-type character (more of an urban merc than a street samurai) primarily used the Franchi SPAS-22 shotgun. Reasonably concealable, BF capable and even with only an 8(m) ammo capacity, he was able to finish most fights without having to reload. Recoil could be a pain, but that could be worked around most of the time. He possessed and sometime carried other firearms (such as a tricked out assault rifle), but he generally considered them to be specialty weapons for specific circumstances rather than his standard load out.
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Bob Lord of Evil
post Apr 21 2010, 03:09 PM
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A shotgun is an awesome weapon. The one short coming is that it is not as readily concealable as other weapons. But for take down power and intimidation (although not quantified within the mechanics) it is an excellent tool.
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Kazuhiro
post Apr 21 2010, 03:14 PM
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"Heavy penalties that cannot be fully compensated by the runner."

Excuse me?

A Gas Vent-3, a gyromount, and just a few other minor tweaks will reduce the recoil on an HVAR-modded MMG to zero. You'll be spitting death in the form of bursts of 12 bullets, with no penalty.
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Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Apr 21 2010, 03:14 PM) *
"Heavy penalties that cannot be fully compensated by the runner."

Excuse me?

A Gas Vent-3, a gyromount, and just a few other minor tweaks will reduce the recoil on an HVAR-modded MMG to zero. You'll be spitting death in the form of bursts of 12 bullets, with no penalty.


When you go to gyro mounts sure. Most people are not going to carry a MMG into combat unless you are amped up troll. I can explain the use of a shotgun to the PD. Using a MMG in a city is a quick way to long jail sentence.
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Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (brennanhawkwood @ Apr 21 2010, 03:05 PM) *
According to SR4A, shotgun slug ranges are equivalent to those of an SMG and flechette ranges are equivelant to those of a heavy pistol. Even without using any tricks to offset range penalties, in most of the SR games I've played in or run, those ranges are more than sufficient since most firefights tend to be in urban environments at fairly close distances.

As a player, my most successful 'muscle'-type character (more of an urban merc than a street samurai) primarily used the Franchi SPAS-22 shotgun. Reasonably concealable, BF capable and even with only an 8(m) ammo capacity, he was able to finish most fights without having to reload. Recoil could be a pain, but that could be worked around most of the time. He possessed and sometime carried other firearms (such as a tricked out assault rifle), but he generally considered them to be specialty weapons for specific circumstances rather than his standard load out.


I have an adept sniper. Longarms with sniper spec. He will be using a Modified Enfield AS-7 that will work with his longarm skill. It is a great short and medium range weapon. With shock locks is is great for removing door problems. Combine it with stick n Shock, ex, apds rounds and you have a very versitile weapons platform.

Modern day they have minigrenades for a AA-12 Combat Shotgun.
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Bob Lord of Evil
post Apr 21 2010, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 21 2010, 03:28 PM) *
Modern day they have minigrenades for a AA-12 Combat Shotgun.


Mmmmmmm...minigrenades. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Speaking of modern day advances in science!

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2...rbide-nanowires

Nanotech is sooooooo cool!
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Kazuhiro
post Apr 21 2010, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 21 2010, 11:20 AM) *
When you go to gyro mounts sure. Most people are not going to carry a MMG into combat unless you are amped up troll. I can explain the use of a shotgun to the PD. Using a MMG in a city is a quick way to long jail sentence.
My streetsam has gyro-implants in his arms. Besides, are you saying that the main disadvantage of using big guns is that they're illegal and you're going to jail for a long time if you get caught? Isn't the legality of your guns the least of your worries when you're shooting at corp-sec?
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kzt
post Apr 21 2010, 03:53 PM
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Shotguns are severely underrated by the mechanics in SR. So I don't blame people not using them.
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Mongoose
post Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM
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Main benefit of the SMG over the Shotgun is suppressive fire. At least in SR3, suppressive fire was less effective than aimed fire, at least for characters with high skill, good combat pools, and multiple initiative passes.

Like brennanhawkwood, I had a character (my namesake) who used the Spaz as his go-to "no limits firefight" tool. I similarly found the ammo capacity not an issue; switching to single shot for a free action let me conserve ammo, and with 3-4 actions a turn (sr3, VERY fast samurai) and high quickness, I could re-load on the fly as needed. A side benefit was, I spent less on ammo. Plus, when wounded, I could use scatter shot and set the spread to reduce to-hit TNs down to where I was still hitting with every shot (if doing less damage). Though I have to admit, my experiment with using spread shot gell rounds while seriously wounded was more amusing than anything else (the phrase "snot cannon" comes to mind).

Sr4 makes the difference less dramatic, but the Enfield AS-7 does look like a very appealing gun to me.

I also like shotguns for fluff reasons; they are really the only (current day) guns that offer a broad range of effective alternate ammo types. If your GM limits S&S rounds to shotguns... well, that would make them VERY popular, no? I'm also surprised there's no special mini-grenade rounds for shotguns; if they can fit effective S&S or APDS tech into a pistol caliber round, then surely there would be 12 gauge mini grenades.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 21 2010, 04:22 PM
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I'm not being sarcastic:

Why don't you have recoil for the second long burst?
Why can't an AR fire long bursts in this scenario? It seems like you're comparing BF to FA, not Automatics to Shotguns.

I love shotguns as much as the next guy, and it's sad they're not quite as good as they ought to be in SR.

Oops, another edit: Why can you fire two long bursts at all?
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Stahlseele
post Apr 21 2010, 04:26 PM
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Hell yes, Burst Fire Shotguns rule in SR.
Best gun in SR3 was the Franchi SPAS-22.
We allowed a Franchi SPAS-12 with Smartlink1 and a Franchis SPAS-02 without any Smartlink.
Burstfire, foldable stock, good to conceal, 10S/13D Damage with Slugs, 10D Damage on single Shot with Flechette.
Bigger Reach than the standard Heavy Pistol. instead of usual Slug load up with ExEx Ammo and you are at 12S/15D Damage.
3 Points of Recoil which can be compensated EASY. Nicest thing about shotguns is loading them up with Gel-Ammo.
Basic Damage is S, so the knockdown is D, which means any target gets to automatically hit the ground when hit.
And 8S/11D Stun damage with that kinda reach and man stopping power is not to be trifled with either.
If you have good eyes and a good laser pointer, you are guaranteed to hit what you aim ait too. Even Trolls will feel THAT.
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Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Apr 21 2010, 05:01 PM) *
I also like shotguns for fluff reasons; they are really the only (current day) guns that offer a broad range of effective alternate ammo types. If your GM limits S&S rounds to shotguns... well, that would make them VERY popular, no? I'm also surprised there's no special mini-grenade rounds for shotguns; if they can fit effective S&S or APDS tech into a pistol caliber round, then surely there would be 12 gauge mini grenades.


Even just for the fluff reasons. A shotgun is a very intimidating weapon. Just on that alone would ward a few bonus dice to intimidate rolls. I tend to agree the rules could use some tweaking concerning shotguns and certain ammo like Stick n Shock. I would let the shot gun fire mini-grenades as an option. The bore is as big as a mini-grenade launcher (a good armorer might be able to make or modify them).

If the PD will come down on you for just carring an MMG, but not for a shotgun(you get a license for a Shotgun). For the rest of us that are not cyberZombies, gyro platform is not small or light.
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Shrike30
post Apr 21 2010, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 21 2010, 05:56 AM) *
Gas vent 3
............
Submachine gun on full auto RC5 (complex Action) is taking at least a -4 to his die pool to do +9 DV
Shotgun long burst RC 6. two long bursts (Simple Actions). no dice penalty and +5DV for each shot.


A few things...

  • Shotguns can't mount gas vents. If you're house-ruling to allow them to have gas vents, that's another thing, but they aren't able to use them normally.
  • You can't fire two long bursts in a turn without having an HV-modified weapon. Shotguns can't be HV-modified, only SMG's and assault rifles can be.
  • Recoil compensation doesn't get applied to each burst you fire in a turn, it gets applied across all the rounds you fire in a turn. In your example of firing two long bursts from a RC6 weapon, the first long burst will be at no penalty, the second long burst will have 5 uncompensated rounds.

Getting a reasonable (hell, a ridiculous) amount of recoil comp onto a SMG or AR isn't hard:

CODE
FN P93 Praetor (built in stock, built in 1 RC, optional electronic firing mechanism)
Accessory Gas Vent 3
Modification Auto-adjusting Weight

This weapon can fire a full burst at -1, for a +9 DV. It holds enough ammunition to do this 5 times.
Add in Modification High-Velocity, and it can fire either a full burst at -3 for +11 DV, or two long bursts (the second at -2) for +5 DV apiece.

CODE
Ares Alpha (built in RC 2, built in grenade launcher)
Accessory Gas Vent 3, Accessory Shock Pad
Modification Auto-Adjusting Weight (installed by removing the grenade launcher and fitting the weight to that space, net mod cost 1 modification slot), Modification Personalized Grip, Modification Drum.

This weapon can fire a full burst with no recoil modification, for +9 DV. It holds enough ammunition to do this 10 times.
Add in Modification High-Velocity, and it can fire a full burst at -2 for +11 DV, or two long bursts (the second at -1) for +5 DV apiece.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 21 2010, 06:23 PM
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See, that's exactly what I'm asking about. That sounds like what I know of the rules, Shrike30.
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Shrike30
post Apr 21 2010, 06:26 PM
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The double uncompensated recoil for shotguns is what makes using them on full auto really hard. If you stick with bursts they do alright.

The AA-16 is a good place to start out, as it does have a built-in gas vent (getting around the "no gas vents on shotguns" restriction)...
CODE
AA-16 (built in gas vent 2)
Accessory Shock Pad.
Modification Auto-adjusting Weight, Modification Personalized Grip.

This is about as much recoil compensation as you can fit on a shotgun in this game... starting with any other shotgun leaves you with 2 less points of RC to play with. RC 6(7 with burst fire) will let you fire off a couple of short bursts with no penalties. Firing a short burst/long burst combo leaves the second one at -2. Full-auto will rack up a -6.

Having a character with either forearm gyros or a high strength rating will let you reduce some of the issues here. It still can't beat an assault rifle, though, especially beyond 150 meters... and any time you have to "explain the use of" anything to PD, you're in deep shit, regardless of whether it was an assault rifle, MMG, or a shotgun.

You want to talk about the king of no-recoil full auto? Let's get started with the Ingram White Knight...
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Nal0n
post Apr 21 2010, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 21 2010, 08:17 PM) *
---snip---

CODE
FN P93 Praetor (built in stock, built in 1 RC, optional electronic firing mechanism)
Accessory Gas Vent 3
Modification Auto-adjusting Weight

This weapon can fire a full burst at -1, for a +9 DV. It holds enough ammunition to do this 5 times.
Add in Modification High-Velocity, and it can fire either a full burst at -3 for +11 DV, or two long bursts (the second at -2) for +5 DV apiece.
---snip---


One little thing:
The FN P93 does nut support under barrel accessories/modifications, so the Auto-adjusting Weight is out.
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Shrike30
post Apr 21 2010, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Arsenal pg. 25)
It (the P93) cannot mount underbarrel accessories.

Doesn't say a thing about modifications (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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Nal0n
post Apr 21 2010, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 21 2010, 08:48 PM) *
Doesn't say a thing about modifications (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


As far as RAW is concerned you're right, sorry.
But when I look at the pic of the gun that all smells a bit cheesy imho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Nal0n: Apr 21 2010, 07:19 PM
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Doc Byte
post Apr 21 2010, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 21 2010, 06:57 PM) *
If the PD will come down on you for just carring an MMG, but not for a shotgun(you get a license for a Shotgun).


"You wanna do what? Hunting ducks with that full-auto shotgun? You've got a hunting licence? Yeah, right. Ye know what? You're under arrest!"
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Mantis
post Apr 21 2010, 07:54 PM
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Going by pictures is dangerous. It shows the FNP93 as a bull pup weapon, which means it should be faster to use than say an AK97 carbine. No rules to cover the differences between bull pup weapons and standard weapons. They should have some recoil mod, range mod, or nebulous "speed mod" to simulate real life. I allow under barrel mods on this weapon in my game but not as accessories. I guess the armorer just shoe horns the weights in there somehow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Triggvi
post Apr 21 2010, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (Nal0n @ Apr 21 2010, 08:19 PM) *
As far as RAW is concerned you're right, sorry.
But when I look at the pic of the gun that all smells a bit cheesy imho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


I can get rc6 with an auto assualt-16
normal RC2
Foregrip 1
Sling 1
personalized Grip 1
Heavy Barrel 1

RC4 with an enfield AS-7 and a sound suppressor

If I am doing two short bursts it doesn't matter.

As far as gas vents are concerned. if you stick with solid shells. You should be able to use them on shotguns.

The shotgun rules need a major edit. Auto shotguns are easier to handle than submachine guns. Take a look at the like I put in a while back. AA-12 has a fairly light recoil(A real Combat Shotgun)

BTW it wouldn't duck hunting. Deer or buck and there are more dangerous thing in the woulds that animals.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 21 2010, 08:46 PM
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But now you're talking about short bursts. What's your point here of shotguns versus automatics? They get 1 DV more than ARs, I guess; any other difference? It's firing slugs with almost identical effects as the SMG or AR, except for concerns of concealability and clip size.
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